I keep reading that the reason mountain lions make so many kills is that black bears are stealing their kills . Long before this ever came out I had very different thoughts on this. It comes from being in the woods a lot. Scouting and hunting in California public lands that are loaded with both these predators and also going off trail in local hiking areas that are not huntable. Rules suck! My thought always were that cats are very efficient killers, they hunt, they kill , they eat as much as they possibly can . They take a break close to the kill, (I've seen there beds )they eat as much as they can again. I've foolishly examined kills way to close when I was younger . You can see different aged exposed flesh . I've seen this multiple times times. Some Very fresh and have even bumped a cat off its kill (hair raising experience) . Then they cover up their kills. Reasonable well. At this point I believe they go on the hunt again. And of course now bears and scavengers eat what's left. I believe the cats are thinking of this partially eaten kill as a back up plan . If they can't kill again . I think there could be a lot of different scenarios depending on abundance and condition of the cat etc... I don't think I'm the foremost expert on mountain lion/bear interactions . I just think cats are killing machines and if the deer are plentiful they prefer fresh . Do we think cats are being pushed off their kills by bears? Anybody on here that has any deeper knowledge?
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I cannot comment on most of what you said because you're the one with much deeper knowledge here. I would say two things ... The reason lions (plural) make so many kills is because there are so dang many lions. I know that's not what you meant but it had to be said. Secondly, it would not surprise me if your suspicion that lions move off kills and on to the next relatively quickly (a few days) is accurate based only on what you said 'cats are killing machines '. Indeed they are absolute killing machines. Perhaps nature's finest. Don't matter the size. Just watching the many cats we've had informs your suspicions...cats just love to kill, they'll kill every day and they like fresh meat, not rancid like the dogs.
I agree with everything you said especially natures killing machine. They are badass beautiful powerful creatures . I've been fortunate to see quite a few . Never felt threatened by them. But definitely I have huge respect for their power and full on alert when i been close to one . I have a bunch of stories but I definitely don't know if my observations are correct as far as the kills I've seen. I'd saw one lot more go on a straight killing spree at a ranch in Sonoma county. I remember at least 5 kills within a few hundred yards. All the tracks were the same size. I never saw the cat(s) but most of it happened at night . Including an epic battle with a nice 3x epic fight from the sign and the buck definitely lost. I glassed the kill and decided to give that area a break . I didn't see any bear sign there . Was loaded with deer !!! And kills
#1Predator
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Generally, lions kill one deer a week and are successful in one out of every five to seven attempts. If not disturbed, lions will eat their fill of a kill (around 15-25 pounds) where the kill is made. They will attempt to cache the rest of the kill in a safe place and will try to camouflage the kill with leaves, dirt, forest debris, etc., intending to feed again in a few days. Bears, coyotes, vultures, scrub jays, ravens, crows, etc. will rob the lion of its kill if they find it. Usually this will happen when a bear or coyote sniffs out the carcass and drags it into the open where other animals can find it.
I learned an interesting fact about lions from an ADC agent aka Federal trapper (ADC - Animal Damage Control, an arm of the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service or APHIS). He was stationed in California before California outlawed steel-jawed traps. When that happened, he transferred to Nevada. He told me that, according to recent studies, the lion population is inversely proportional to the wolf population. That's a fancy scientific way of saying when the wolf population increases, the lion population decreases, a seesaw or teeter-totter effect. It seems that wolf packs kill and eat lion cubs when they find the den. Zero reproduction results in lower numbers of lions.
With California's rapidly increasing wolf population, it won't be long until we see a reduction in the number of lions only to be replaced by wolf packs. Not a very comforting thought.
I learned an interesting fact about lions from an ADC agent aka Federal trapper (ADC - Animal Damage Control, an arm of the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service or APHIS). He was stationed in California before California outlawed steel-jawed traps. When that happened, he transferred to Nevada. He told me that, according to recent studies, the lion population is inversely proportional to the wolf population. That's a fancy scientific way of saying when the wolf population increases, the lion population decreases, a seesaw or teeter-totter effect. It seems that wolf packs kill and eat lion cubs when they find the den. Zero reproduction results in lower numbers of lions.
With California's rapidly increasing wolf population, it won't be long until we see a reduction in the number of lions only to be replaced by wolf packs. Not a very comforting thought.
Dang that's great info . Im thinking wolves will be worse than lions overall.We are definitely loaded with predators and now wolfs to boot. Take your pick. It just looks like our deer herds are in deeper trouble. The elk herds appear to be growing . I would imagine these wolves will use them to increase their packs .
I think another important thing to remember is that black bears have an absolutely amazing sense of smell. So if a lion makes a kill, eats it’s fill as stated above and caches the kill, it is likely inevitable a bear in the area will find it and eat. Based on a cats mastery of stealth I am sure this rarely involves direct conflict between the two species.
I would imagine the lion gets woken up by the bear and simply moves on. It’s probably not a personal theft. Bear smells dead thing, bear eats dead thing.
Another interesting thing about bears though is they rarely kill adult deer but due to their sense of smell are fawn gobbling machines. That would be a spring delicacy for them. Come summer it’s on to berries, tubers, and insects. Then in the fall more of the same plus acorns.
I mention this all to say that I am sure bears eat deer mountain lions have killed but I don’t think it’s sone huge conflict between the two.
I would imagine the lion gets woken up by the bear and simply moves on. It’s probably not a personal theft. Bear smells dead thing, bear eats dead thing.
Another interesting thing about bears though is they rarely kill adult deer but due to their sense of smell are fawn gobbling machines. That would be a spring delicacy for them. Come summer it’s on to berries, tubers, and insects. Then in the fall more of the same plus acorns.
I mention this all to say that I am sure bears eat deer mountain lions have killed but I don’t think it’s sone huge conflict between the two.
Good points. Plus the density of bears is much higher than mountain lions. Both very effective at their own survival strategies. Probably at least ten bears per mountain lion. I remember my dad coming back to camp on a backpack hunt in trinity Alps . He was glassing a doe and a fawn and all of a sudden a bear pounced the fawn . Neither my dad or the deer saw the ambush coming . He was pretty excited to tell the story . Let's get some Bears this year !
I'm sure your right a cat isn't going to have much of a confrontation with a bear . I was deer hunting D6 probably 15 years ago . I had been out for a week . It was the last day of the season . we were in the right area , my buddy got a buck the day before. I decided to go in deep and spend the whole day trying to make it happen . Late in the afternoon I stumbled on a very fresh cat kill. No bad smell He hadn't even begun to cover up the nice fat forkhorn yet. I spent a little time on the spot. He had clearly dragged the buck up to this little rocky flat . He had eaten on the deer more than once . He had made a bed about 15 ft from the carcass against a rocky ledge . I eased my way out of there and the cat never attacked me thankfully . I felt I heard him real close and that he stayed with me for a while but that could have been due to being slightly on edge. Haha. What an understatement I'm pretty sure I had to change my shorts after!
#1Predator
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There are approximately 25,000 black bears in California. Their population is increasing by about 2% per year after all mortality numbers are figured in (hunting, road kill, ~disease, injury and old age numbers). Lion population numbers had been estimated to be around 6,000 in the 1990s. That number has been revised downward to around 4,500 currently. Lions hunt primarily by sight. Their hearing is good but their sense of smell is not that good.
Bears have good hearing but their eyesight is poor, generally they are thought to be nearsighted. Their sense of smell is excellent, in fact it is on par with their close cousins, pigs. Bears will kill and eat pigs, especially young piglets. Gooseberries, elderberries, ants, termites, certain kinds of roots, acorns (which are just starting to drop this month), grasses and juniper berries are on a bear's menu in addition to carrion (dead livestock & other animals). Bears (and coyotes) will eat calf poop. Their poop is high in undigested protein & colostrum.
Bears have good hearing but their eyesight is poor, generally they are thought to be nearsighted. Their sense of smell is excellent, in fact it is on par with their close cousins, pigs. Bears will kill and eat pigs, especially young piglets. Gooseberries, elderberries, ants, termites, certain kinds of roots, acorns (which are just starting to drop this month), grasses and juniper berries are on a bear's menu in addition to carrion (dead livestock & other animals). Bears (and coyotes) will eat calf poop. Their poop is high in undigested protein & colostrum.
That's why they are so successful! So adaptable with habitat and food and basically no predators without grizz. . The manzanita are prime and loaded with berries around my home. Was a big bear berry poop in my driveway yesterday . I also have been harvesting the berries and made ice tea yesterday. So good !
That information is coming from the biologist's. they brush on that in webinar #26 hunting zones D3-4&5 of advanced hunter education site.
I listened to that and that's where I came up with my question? It's also been repeated in several podcasts. Im no biologist , I just question that statement (stealing). Stealing to me says the bears are actively pushing the cats off the kill and forcing them to hunt again ??? We probably all seen some wildlife videos where wolves push a grizz off a kill. Or hyenas push a lone cat off a kill etc. Whereas I feel (not a scientific conclusion) the mountain lions eat their fill , hide it and go back on the hunt . If they are unsuccessful they come back and if it's still there eat some more .every scavenger can smell a dead deer carcass and will make a meal of it if there isn't a cat guarding it. wondering if anyone else had observations. Do bears push them off their kill and force them to hunt again? Do the biologists have observations? I guess it doesn't really matter, I know part of this was trying to get more bear tags available and being able to to let hunters have more than one tag until the target harvest is reached. It's all good. We need to harvest more bears is the objective. The population studies say there are between 25000 and 60000 black bears in California . A scientific approach akin to guessing how many jelly beans are in that 5 gallon bucket??? Not blaming anyone for that . It would take a massive effort to have an accurate population study.
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Oldtool, there are about 60-65,000 bears in California nowadays (per CDFW's bear biologist). The department put out a draft bear plan in 2024, since finalized below and has a lot of info being talked about here, listed in detail. You guys are on top of it.
Mendocino County Blacktail Deer Association was the catalyst for a deer study on the Mendocino National Forest for several years and ended in 2014. A big surprise during that study was the amount of bears bullying lions off their kill, forcing them to kill again before they normally would have. That study is cited throughout this document.
Bears are in no short supply and not only bully lions off their kills, but are REALLY adept at eating fawns. A CDFW biologist in the D3-5 area told me bears are the cause of about 70% fawn mortality.
Mendocino County Blacktail Deer Association was the catalyst for a deer study on the Mendocino National Forest for several years and ended in 2014. A big surprise during that study was the amount of bears bullying lions off their kill, forcing them to kill again before they normally would have. That study is cited throughout this document.
Bears are in no short supply and not only bully lions off their kills, but are REALLY adept at eating fawns. A CDFW biologist in the D3-5 area told me bears are the cause of about 70% fawn mortality.
Nice , that's what I was looking for. I have read other info put out by Mendocino BT association . Very credible! I have purchased a bear tag for the last 5 years or so . I see that these bears are out of control . I live in D5 and our small town is overrun with them. I have embarrassingly never taken a bear despite having many opportunities. I usually use the excuse that I want to get my buck first, afraid it won't taste good, I'm too far from the truck. So on . I need to break the ice this year. I almost got run over by one when I was calling turkeys this spring. I was ready last year to take one but never had a good opportunity . I'll Be hunting x12 and D5 this year. I've set aside the time and am going to get my bear. Hopefully more people will target them and we can get to 1700! Thanks for the info
I read through the bear management presentation. Some great information in there. Plus a lot that was over my head. The resources that were used is very impressive. I also learned a new word "klepto parasitism" Basically when one animal steals the kill of another. . My questions are definitely answered and I am ready to go hunt some bears. One thing that was interesting as snoop mentioned . That fawn mortality for deer on the west slope of the Sierra is around 70 perfect attributed to black bears!!! Much less on the eastern slope of the Sierra . Hopefully all the attention it's getting will increase our harvest, knowledge and desire to hunt black bears .especially in the D zones that are open to bear hunting
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I stand corrected. According to the DFW website, the bear population is estimated at between 49,000 and 71,000. So, it appears, these numbers are S.W.A.G., yup, a Scientific Wild A$$ Guess.
#1Predator
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California made a huge mistake when they outlawed the use of dogs to hunt bears. Hunters were more successful and more selective when dogs were used. Chase a bear up a tree, look at it and decide if the hunter wanted it. If it was a sow with cubs or a small bear, the dogs could be pulled off, no harm, no foul. If the hunter decided to take the treed bear, it was usually a shot of 25-50 feet. Hounds could trail a bear if it was wounded and the hunter could finish it off. It was good wildlife management and a humane way to take a bear. Unfortunately, politics got in the way of science.
