DFG actions force largest hunter safety class in state to

[bossrooster]

Fullsack'
When was the last time that the DFG could live in their budget?  It seems to me that every year the cost of my hunting and fishing license creep up ward. .25 here 1.45 there more for Big Game permits the loss of area's to hunt Pronghorn Antelope on the Carrizo Plains? ELIMINATED ...... is this the lack of proper Game Management on behalf of the Department that should be taking the lead role in such matters, there only questions and looking for a few answers. Any help out there?

 

[EL CAZADOR]

How about a Pheasants Forever sponsored hunter safety course??

 

[bigtroutbane]

I was planning on paying for my brother-in-law for his birthday to take the class so he can experience his first Dove Hunt Season this year.  But it looks like I'll have to find another class.  Plus there is nothing like the attending the class with 100-200 other like minded hunters at the same time.  I took the class myself 5 years ago with my other 2 brothers.

All classes are not alike.  Yes, they do teach the same material as mandated by the state.  However, each individual instructor brings his or her own personal experience and knowledge to the program, making each class unique.  

If Turner's or Raahauge's want to make a profit from the individuals who attend, that is their business.  Last time I checked, I think that in the US there was nothing wrong with a company making a profit.  

 

[m57jager]

First off they are a business, trying to make a profit. WHO CARES!!!!  Nobody is being forced to go.  If their sales associates are telling people only about that course, WHO CARES!!!!  You don't walk into to K-Mart and expect them to tell you about the prices at Target, Wal-Mart.  If people don't research, then it's there own fault and ignorance.  Turner's has high prices on their mechandise?  Are you kidding me, maybe you'll find better prices at a pawn shop, maybe.  The price has been $35 since I took it 9 years ago.  If they're trying to make such a buck, while haven't the prices boomed with the market.  So, what if Raahauges can potentially make a buck off it.  If people like what they see, they can return.  If they don't, they don't have to.  It's a great atmosphere, and a good boost for the little guys.  The only thing they should fix, is the honesty about the food.  I bet if you ask them what you'll be eating you won't hear tri-tip and mignon.  I was more than happy to ay the $35, and Raahuges was a fun place to do it at.

 

[huntducks]

All you gents who are defending the $35 dollars best check into why it is not flying, and you will find out  that it's the LAW at what amount they can and cannot charge, and part of the money for the hunter safty course is subsized by stamp money state & federal, all instructors are NRA certified trained for FREE by the NRA, they get $0 per student, there only charges can be for range fees and material, the NRA prints for FREE the safty books, this program was set up to make it afforadable for all, and to increase hunter safty, what do you think T & R would do two weeks before dove season if they could charge anything they wanted i'll bet it would be closer to $100 and you same guys would still think you got a bargin, just because you got over charged by $25 at one time does not make it right.

There are 100's of hunter SC in SoCal, you guys act like they shut the only one left down, and I feel a lot better seeing someone go to a class with 10-15 rather they 200 playing grab a$$, somewhere they proved that smaller classes you learn more not the other way around, but I guess the same guys that go to the T&R classes are the same ones that shoot at low flying doves & deer that have a building or person past it, but I guess they have a excuse the class was to big.

So 25-30 bucks for a coke & a dog seems a little hi.

If they are such great people only doing it out of the kindness of there heart now they will do it for $5-10 like everyone else and drop the lunch.

:rant-mode:

(Edited by huntducks at 1:59 am on May 14, 2002)

 

[Hogskin]

<font face=arial size=1><blockquote><hr noshade size=1>Quote: from huntducks on 1:43 am on May 14, 2002
....
There are 100's of hunter SC in SoCal, you guys act like they shut the only one left down...

<hr noshade size=1></blockquote></font>

Huntducks,

That's exactly the point.  There are 100's of other SC classes in SoCal.  Nobody is pointing a gun to the heads of the people who attend the T&R classes.  If they want to spend $35, why not let them?  

Just because it is the LAW that they cannot charge $35 doesn't make it right.  There's laws that say I can't own an AK-47, but that doesn't make it right either.  There are still plenty of low budget classes out there for folks who need them.  And if somebody is dumb enough to wait till 2 weeks before dove season to take a SC, they deserve to pay $100. :smile-big-blue:

Regards,
Paul

 

[Pasco]

I thought this was a dead horse, but it still seems to be kickin’, so here goes…

First off, let’s put this into perspective, an idiot at 6 A.M is still an idiot at 4 P.M.  The class (10 hrs.) isn’t going to have a great affect on anybody; it is just the beginning of lessons learned over a lifetime, most people take it because it’s required.  The first source of learning is from the people you hunt with, I can’t believe anyone stops short of doing something unsafe or unethical because he learned it in class.  The laws are the laws, and common sense is common sense.  Good Lord, it’s a state sponsored class, how much do we really expect? LOL

I don’t know what their cost structure is, but if they have 20 people in class and their fixed costs (advertising, room rental, parking lot, taxes, etc) don’t change, it costs more per student if there are 20 students than if there were 200 students.  The variable costs (doughnuts and hot dogs) increase with the number of students.  I assume the fixed costs far outweigh the variables.  If they figured their costs based on 20 students, and they get 200, they may be victims of their own success.  If this is what happened, they are overcharging and breaking the rules (making profit).  If they are just dishonest and running a scam, they are breaking the rules.

If Raahauge and Turner’s have been breaking the rules, the DFG should prosecute (my tax dollars at work:crygreen.  Just not letting them play isn’t good enough.  I would imagine there is an audit process in place, they should check the books and move along with it.  If they aren’t willing to prosecute, they need to back off and let the class continue.  Due process.

Disclaimer:  I am neither an accountant, cop, or lawyer so if I’m blowing smoke let me know.


(Edited by SoCalxJR at 9:13 am on May 14, 2002)

 

[huntducks]

Hogskin & bigtroutbane

The problem is that they are using state, federal & NRA money to turn a profit, and no one can convince me there not, I would not care if they had to pay the instructors, buy there own material and pay for a add, but they were getting all that free then charging $35.

I'll bet somewhere along the line there rental costs was for what a building owned by ?, did they not conduct the HSC out at Raahauges, I doubt it will go any farther then it has.

If both are truely intersted in hunter safty then continue the classes but charge $10 like all others, i'll bet that don't happen.

SoCalxJR
I disagree about the class not having a effect, my son did learn a number of safty issues from it and uses them to this day, last year I watched him jump over a ditch and he cleared the chamber on his gun before he did, he took the class when he was 7 and is now 24, the class is a great learning tool for young hunters 8-14.

 

[Pasco]

Huntducks,

Of course there is some merit to the class.  I also imagine your son learned a lot more from dad over the years than the class when he was seven.  Give the bulk of the credit to yourself and your son rather than the class.:smile-yellow:

 

[Modocer]

I personly know Mike Wolters, He was the head game warden here in Modoc for several years before he got the state hunters safety job. He is an honorable man, he does things to the letter of the law. As a warden I believe he would have written his own mother a ticket, if she deserved one. He is very prohunting and believes that everyone should have the right to hunt and fish.
If he shut this program down it is because they were doing some illegal things. He believes that all  illegal actions are a detrament to hunting as a whole.

 

[huntducks]

SoCalxJR

I agree with that, but the class reinforced everything I have taught him:smile-blue

 

[spectr17]

Nothing illegal Modercer, just DFG's opinion that Turner's is making TOO much of a profit in their opinion. How ironic that a state run department would point the finger at a private business entity for pork spending. :laffin-yellow: As Matthews stated, have any of these DFG people existed in the real world or have they been safely secluded in gooberment work all their life?

As pointed out earlier, it's your responsbility to research the class and costs to attend. I usually avoid the cheapest anything since it is rarely the best deal and hit somewhere in the middle. In a capitalist society the overpriced service or goods usually doesn't last long.

I remember doing a dog and pony show for a company I used to work for kinda like the safety class. We rented space, printed up handouts and did some advertising.  We also had some work and material donated but it was a pretty good bill every month I had to justify to the boss. Just for giggles, call around to see what advertising costs, you might be floored what just a little square ad will cost you. Now call around to rent a hall or room that will hold 250 people and see what you get.

This all from the same DFG that won't even pay their wardens the same as other deputized people in the state. DFG priorities are so out of whack it's ridiculous.

Please reread the article and note the part about how DFG's Wolter arbitrarily cut the costs Turner's can claim for hall rental. Since the hall rental wasn't lowered by the owner, who picks up the difference? Also note how Wolter didn't allow any money to be used for advertising. Hello McFly!!!! Advertising is what makes the program work and last time I checked, advertising isn't a free ride. Using Wolter's own logic, since Turner's is raiding the cookie jar they should collapse from all their greed but yet the class is the best in the state. Hello McFly!!!! If the class wasn't worth $35.00 the word of mouth would kill it off in short time. Hmmmmmm, best class in the state. Sumpin ain't right here.

This is a no brainer and a huge loss for the hunting community. I've kind of grown used to this flawed, backwards thinking from the DFG over the years. Why am I not surprised now?

Less Filling!!!!!

 

[jerry d]

Well, I held out as long as I could before inserting myself in a position to get yelled at, but here goes.

Didn't these same people get in trouble with the D. F.& G. a few years ago. Don't recall where I saw it but it may have been on the old Calif. Hunting board before it shut down and, if I remember correctly, there was something about the state pulling the qualifications of their instructors, or something like that, and they had to cancel some classes. I could be wrong, but wasn't it also something related to audit of class fees at that time.

The Hunter Education Operations Manual, which is issued to each instructor, specifically states, among other things, the following under, "Fees".

"The Fish and Game Code states. 'No fee shall be charged for the instructor's services, however, a fee to cover the cost of giving such instructions may be charged each person participating and receiving such instructions.' In other words, students may be charged a fee to offset the instructor's out-of-pocket expense."

"These expenses may include range fees, ammunition, milage, advertising, classroom or equipment rental, postage, awards, handouts, instructor brassards or name tags, and training aids and an administrative fee to offset the cost of issuing a duplicate certificate of course completion. Milage cannot be charged unless the instructor has a current 'Use of Private Vehicle for State Business' form on file with the regional coordinator."

"Class fee shall not exceed $10.00 per student without specific Depatment of Fish and Game approval. To obtain approval, let your regional coordinator know in writing specifically what expenses you will incur and how many students you expect."

"Class fees shall not be used for the purchase of non-expendable (property) items. Fees can be used to purchase trainung aids such as slides, flip charts, targets, an inexpensive chalk board, an archery kit, or other training aids. Firearms, movie projectors or furniture shall not be purchased but may be rented with class fees. In no case shall fees be used to amortize household expenses or pay for wear and tear on furniture, carpeting, fixtures, etc."

It also states, "Whenever a fee is charged the law requires that a record of income and expenses must be kept. The record need not be elaborate, but must itemize each specific expense and the income per student. The record must be kept for three years and be available to any Department of Fish and Game employee upon request. The fund should not be co-mingled with the instructors personal funds."

The D. F. & G. does periodically audit these records and we've found them to be fair in their audits.

Seems to me, Raahauges could cover the fee requirement and then offer lunch as a seperate item totally unrelated to the course. If a person wanted to pay whatever for lunch, so be it. Just don't make it mandatory. If someone wishes to bring their own lunch and not pay the lunch fee, that should be ok, too.

We don't provide lunch at our classes and found that's the best way to go. Some people don't eat "junk food" and some don't eat meat. If they want lunch we advise them to "bring your own lunch". We do have vending machines available to the general public at the main firing range if the students wish to use them. Here again, their personal choice. I do know of one class that provides lunch for their students and they stay in the required frame work for fees. So it can be done.

If anyone doesn't feel we make an impact on the youngsters that attend to our classes, you have my personal invitation to attend one of our classes, or a class of your choice, and see for yourself how we conduct the class and present the course material. You just might be surprised and may even learn something new yourself. It's true we can't ride along and assure they'll remember all they were taught but I'm confident they know "ethical" from "unethical" and "safe" from "unsafe" when they leave our classroom. It's also true they'll be greatly influenced, ethically or unethically, by their "role model" when in the field.

A better idea - The D. F. & G. is always looking for new instructors. Why not become one and maybe make your own personal impact.

My $.02.......................

 

[huntducks]

Jerry d

Thanks I knew it went something like that and let fly from off the top, you filled in the blanks and that's the way it should be, and yes there was something several years ago and they almost got shut down then.

Jerry you don't have to be an math major to figure out that someone is making money off this at $35 a head, and thoes that posted supporting that fine with me change the law, make it unlimited and you will see the sales of hunting license fall farther, it's ashame that we in Kalifornia have come to expect everything to cost a days pay, baseball game, basketball, disneyland so on, so I see how you have become conditioned to think $35 is and must be a bargin.

I just spoke with my brother in law last night and I asked him about his daughter taking it last year, he told me it was $ 10 and a box of 22lr they had 4 rifles to shoot had to load and unload a SS and a Ruger 10-22 and fire 15 rounds and after class they could stay and shoot if they wanted, lunch was optional $3.00 students or parents it was broken into two days 5hrs-5hrs the class was limited to 20 and he said just listning he learned a thing or two, and last year while dove hunting he leaned his shotgun against the truck and she told him that was a no no he did not tell her he already unloaded it.

Jesse the only thing we will agree on will be to disagree on this one, someday when sitting around the campfire I will tell you a few face to face stories about said folkers.

 

[karstic]

<font face=arial size=1><blockquote><hr noshade size=1>Quote: from spectr17 on 7:10 pm on May 14, 2002


This all from the same DFG that won't even pay their wardens the same as other deputized people in the state. DFG priorities are so out of whack it's ridiculous.

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I find it ironic in this year of the great California deficit that Davis could find enough money to give state prison guards a raise, but not DFG wardens. Last I heard there are vacanies for DFG wardens and there are having a hard time getting people to go to the academy.

 

[bubba]

Jerry D:  Where do you instruct?  I am going to pu tmy daughter through class this year.

 

[Bishop]

Karstic:
I think if you look at how much the state prison guards association (Union) donated to Gray Davis's campaign you'll find your answer to the desparity in salaries.

 

[kilbuc]

FYI--wardens pay scale.

Back in the days of Jerry Brown (Gray Dufuss mentor) collective barginning for state employees was initiated (read unions).  There are many unions that represent different professions within state government.  Fish and Game Wardens were put in a union with the State Police, and a group of dispatchers, clericals and others that had nothing to do with law enforecment.  The State Police were able to get out and are now in the same union as the Highway Patrol.

There have been several bills and proposals to increase the Wardens pay scale over the years but there own union has rejected the proposals since there stance has been if one group gets increased pay or benefits all members of the union receive it.  Bottom line the union the Wardens are in is responsible for the Wardens pay scale not the Dept of F&G.    

But I agree Wardens have got the short end of the stick and have a hard time competing with other law enforcement agencies for new recruits.

 

[spectr17]

Just so we can set the record straight on all these ALLEDGED violations or so called violations by Turner's.

YET EVEN MORE FISH AND GAME SCREWUPS -- Jim Matthews 12jul00

The flood gates are open and the calls about Department of Fish and Game mismanagement are pouring in. Read on.

DFG AND HUNTER SAFETY: One of the busiest times of the year for a hunter safety instructor is late July and August. Junior hunters, wives, and other first-timers are being enrolled in courses so they can get their hunting license in time for the September 1 dove opener. Many instructors increase the number of classes they teach this time of year to meet the demand. Recently the DFG sent out dozens of certified letters to instructors telling them not to teach any classes until audits of their records are complete. The DFG does not allow instructors to charge more than $10 per student per class unless they provide services greater than instruction. Some classes, like those offered through Turner's Outdoorsman at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, charge $35 to cover lunch, range fees, and the cost of promoting and administering the class. The instructors who teach the classes are unpaid volunteers.

Andy McCormick, a Turner's spokesman, said they have over a hundred students signed up for August classes, but no instructors to teach them because the DFG is auditing their instructors -- who are unpaid. You figure that one out. "What are we supposed to do? These people are jeopardizing the most successful hunter safety class in 20 years. It just doesn't make sense," said McCormick. He said the Turner's classes run between 1,500 and 2,000 new hunters through the program each year, generating large sums of revenue for the DFG through license and tag sales. "These people are morons. They complain that hunter numbers are down which affects their revenue, and then create a nightmare for guys who are generating new hunters for them. It just doesn't make sense. We all have a common goal -- to get people into the field -- or at least I thought it was a common goal," said McCormick. Apparently instructors throughout the region are also in a bind, having to cancel classes, while the DFG -- in its plodding way -- sorts through this non-problem.

End article

==============================================================

So, in the end there has been nothing illegal done by Turner's regardless of what a few have insinuated. The problem lies with the DFG and their continued bumbling and no care attitude which drops our hunter numbers even lower.

I still defy any of you to explain why, if Turner's hunter safety program is such a rip-off,  does it draw the most students and have the best scores, STATEWIDE? The cost of Turner's class and the meddling of a DFG desk bound manager aside, just please answer how this is possible.

Now back to the bottom line, we lose new hunters no matter how you slice it. For example, Billy has a chance to go dove hunting with his friend for the first time or go jet skiing. One big hurdle to going hunting is he needs the hunter saefty class. Since DFG arbitrarily lopped off 10% of their classes, I hope Billy can find a class he can attend. If not, he may never go on the dove hunt and be turned onto hunting for the rest of his life.

Hntducks, regardless of how you or I feel about Turner's or their employees, can we not wonder why the DFG is being so pig headed about the hunter safety class?

 

[karstic]

Spectr17, you ask a good question, What is the DFG's motive for the audit? Maybe some people who took the class complained about the price.

A question to those of you who have taken the class at Raahauges, did you have any hands-on range time with firearms?