Don't even look at deer if you see one!!!!!!

[m57jager]

DFG is still out there with the robodeer! I know of someone who got tagged tonight but it was kind of ridiculous. He's a houndsman going up the night before with his dogs and as he's driving he sees eyes in the distance in front of his vehicle. He kept on and noticed it was a buck and as he was driving by without slowing shined a flashlight on him. He didn't have a loaded or easy to get to firearm and as he rounded the turn they lit him up. When they asked him what he was doing he told them he was admiring the wildlife. They wrote him a ticket for spotlighting even though he never slowed and never touched a gun, nor did he have a loaded one in the vehicle. I know, I know, but it seems a little much. That's where the common sense side should come into play. Obviously he wasn't a poacher if he wasn't slowing down or have a loaded gun.

 

[MtnCruzr]

What area was this in?

Something does not add up, either the story your buddy is telling you is a little false or some other facts are missing. He can't be written a ticket for driving around with a flash light if he didn't have a weapon or wasn't doing something that gave them reasonable suspicion that he was actually spotlighting. If what you say here is true, he can take it to court and the Judge will prolly throw it out.

Good Luck to him.

 

[6x7]

from my take on his story he did have a gun It wasnt loaded and ammo was seperated and also he shined the light on the deer.From what I make of the law thats all illegal, you cant even divert your headlights off the road a bit if you have a gun or bow in the truck or car.

 

[Common Sense]

I reckon the warden's were probably following the "letter" of the law and were legal in their actions.

If I were the houndsman, I would sure be talking to the judge about the "spirit" of the law.

 

[Cal Kellogg]

Revenue Grab!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bubblehide]

I reckon the warden's were probably following the "letter" of the law and were legal in their actions.

If I were the houndsman, I would sure be talking to the judge about the "spirit" of the law.

Based purely on the OP description, I would have to agree with the above, but add that some laws are written to tell us what we can't do (i.e., what is illegal). As I recently became aware of, most of the F&G regulations tell us how we can legally take game, but if something is not listed as legal, or illegal, it in no way implies it being either and can in fact be either legal or illegal depending on circumstances. But more importantly, most of our laws require some degree of intent, as such this combined with the spirit of the law may have some effect.

With some of today's flashlights putting out over 100, even 200 lumens, I can easily see the act of using a flashlight, being spotlighting. But as one of the other posters pointed out, legally it only takes diverting one headlights, i.e., swerving on the road to get a better look; something almost irresistible to most hunters. I can't tell you how many times I have swirved on the road at night in an attempt to get "a look", i.e., "wildlife viewing", with no intent of even attempting to take a deer. To combat that urge, during deer season, I try to stay out of the truck and do no driving at night.

I can still recall hunting Colorado back when the Robo deer was pretty much unheard of. I went into town to grab a good sit down meal before the opener, the following morning. Coming back to camp that evening, the sun was fading, but there was still enough light to see across the fields that lined the road into camp (the remaining light being the only likely thing that saved me from diverting my headlights at that point in time). Well as I went around a curve in the road, I could see a nice buck out in the field; I pulled over to glass it. Through the glass I could tell something was a bit fishy with the buck, but it was fairly realistic looking (they've come a long way since then). Satisfied with my look, I pulled back into the road and proceed to camp. Right around the next corner I spotted F&G while still setting up. there was no attempt to stop me; and it was later while reading an article about Robo Deer that I realized what I had seen. Despite me having done nothing illegal, and not having any intent to do anything illegal, it could have turned out very different if it had been dark, and considering the letter of the law. If the facts are correct, I can really feel for the guy, and wish him the best in this ordeal; I see this as one of those situations were officer discretion can go a long way in creating and maintaining an atmosphere of mutual respect, support...

 

[dchunter]

Rediculous! Can't believe it. If they never saw him draw a weapon or attempt to see him doing anything that resembled attempting to use a weapon to poach the "robodeer", then I am outraged by the incident and the way it was handled. This kind of stuff gets my blood pressure up and angers me that this is even a topic for discussion. Good luck to everyone and I say if you know you aren't doing anything wrong and that's not your INTENT, then admire away. If they want to ticket me for that, I will gladly accept the ticket and show up for my court date and let the judge know what I really think.

 

[Cal Kellogg]

Bubblehide said...

"But as one of the other posters pointed out, legally it only takes diverting one headlights, i.e., swerving on the road to get a better look; something almost irresistible to most hunters. I can't tell you how many times I have swirved on the road at night in an attempt to get "a look", i.e., "wildlife viewing", with no intent of even attempting to take a deer."

Boy I'm right there with you...I just like to see stuff and if I'm deer hunting and I see a buck in the lights I like to check it out even though I would never illegally shoot a buck or other animal like that...It just makes you feel good that some are around...And what hunter doesn't like to look at a buck?

I think cases like this are great examples of "lazy law enforcement". Is shinning a light in the woods when you have a gun illegal?...Yes that's the way the law is written, but you've got to ask what is the intent of the hunter and the intent of the robo deer.

The robo deer (which I'm not crazy about) is intended to tempt someone into actively breaking the law..ie...shooting from a road, shooting from a truck, shooting into private property etc. Propping the fake deer up and then writing a ticket because someone shined a light on it, while correct by the letter of the law, seems pretty chicken #$%@&.

If the DFG is going to enforce things to the letter of the law I wish they would act accordingly and live up to the letter of the law as it pertains to the agency. Basically I'm talking about how they use their funds, but I'm also talking about the selective way they enforce the law...I'll give an example that relates to fishing....

I live near the California Delta...Here is Ca it is illegal to knowingly kill gamefish as a result of water diversion etc. There was an island above Rio Vista, called Prospect Island that had a levee break and had become flooded for several years. During the winter big numbers of stripers and other gamefish would swim onto the flooded island.

About three years ago the federal government hired a contractor to repair the levee break and pump out the island. Of course the feds had to do a EIR before starting to work and the report (prepared by their agency) basically said there were no gamefish on the island...Well when they started pumping there were actually thousands of stripers and other fish trapped on the island. Despite this no one was notified and the pumping continued and thousands of fish died. Finally a couple guys scouting for ducks discovered the fish and a grassroots fish rescue was organized, despite the urging of DFG officials that no rescue be attempted.

Now if you or I had those fish on our land and did something similar we would have been fined heavily, however in this case the DFG has chosen not to bring any charges or impose any fines on either the feds or the contractor doing the work.

The DFG is sworn to protect our public trust resources ie, fish, game and the environment, however the way they enforce the law is often very selective. If they are going to follow the letter of the law and write people up for shinning a flashlight on a fake deer even though the person has shown no intent to attempt to take the deer, I find it unacceptable that they choose not to follow the letter of the law in situations like the Prospect Island fish kill.

And about that deer...I know that the court has ruled that fake deer are legal to be used by law enforcement, but I've never been comfortable with law enforcement setting up tempting situation to lure folks into breaking the law....Its like have a police officer go to a club with drugs on his person, offer to sell the drugs and then busting people that express interest...I'm not for poaching or drugs, however I think it's legitimate to ask if the folks busted in sting operations would have broken the law had it not been for law enforcement setting up the situation....

If there is an area where deer are being spotlighted and poached do some good old fashion police work...Set up a stakeout, set in the truck all night and bust the bad guys...Don't take the easy way out and set up a fake deer so you can write a bunch of citations.

 

[m_freeman]

...That's where the common sense side should come into play. Obviously he wasn't a poacher if he wasn't slowing down or have a loaded gun.

the reality is Law Enforcement, and the Courts have a piece of paper that says, "we win you lose" forget the moral high ground of justice. Cop impounded my car on a DMV error cost me $300.00 and a couple a days time absolutely nothing I could do about it. Research and obey all the rules, always have a way to prove you are innocent in case you encounter an overzealous LE some people are recording all LE encounters. Realize the law is about the money these days. Unfortunately, here in CA they have criminalized almost anything so LE has a tremendous latitude in writing ciations. If the guy didn't have a gun in the car then there would be another violation they could write for.

I would add if you see a nice buck off the road here in So CA you can be guaranteed it's the robo deer LOL

 

[Ridn9high]

I know of ppl getting tickets 10 years ago in D5 for shining their headlights on a fake deer. The deer was positioned on a corner of a very popular dirt road. When u rounded the corner, the buck was just above most vehicles main beams. Hunters were being written tickets for backing up with intent of "spot lighting" the deer with their headlights. I remember seeing the deer as we came turned that corner midmorning.

I'm not going to lie. This past week while on Colorado, I spotted a big buck while coming off the mountain in the dark. I was on the phone with my brother when I saw the buck in the road. I said "holly crap that's a big buck". After slowly passing the buck, I turned around about a 1/8 mile down the road to see it again. When I came back, the buck was eating on the side of the road. I sat the for a few seconds and admired the massive antlers. Again I turned around and headed back to town with a positve mind set of the area I was hunting.

 

[dchunter]

The moral of the story is those PO's needed to be paid somehow for sitting there all night. So, the first guy that came along and did what any of us would have done, was written a ticket to justify this sting operation, which is what it was. This would be a much more effective operation if done after the hunting season when I suspect most poaching takes place any ways.

 

[m57jager]

While that whole situation disgust me court is the only thing that could help him prevail. I didn't know if you swerve your headlights on it that you can get in trouble. I'm a horn addict and don't think I could resist ever. While no intent to poach and purely admiring my days are numbered before I get ticketed if this is the case. Coming off of the Shaver side tonight where I heard the robodeer was today(third party) we saw 9 doe, a spike and a spotted fawn milkin away right next to the road. A cute little guy that looked only about a couple weeks old. I couldn't even resist there. There were so many so close I stopped for awhile(darkish, but no headlights) and sat there and watched them. I think we all like watching bucks out of season during the rut and could sit for days watching. A car went by and I left before someone could mistake my love for wildlife with poaching intent. I do believe in reporting both sides and today a different DFG warden from the initial story stopped us. We had just hiked out a ways in the snow. We opened up the truck and started pulling off layers and snacking. Truck was off, keys out of the ignition and still cold. I propped my rifle up against my tire and my buddy put his on his seat in the truck. He was really polite and checked our tags and license then he said he was going to need to check our rifles. My buddy told him his was chambered still that we literally just got back and he could feel the hood as it is cold. The warden started saying, "No, cmon guys, you can't do that". We explained that we never ride chambered and he caught as we got to the truck. He told us yeah but then you forget and your driving down the road with a chambered rifle and the dangers of such. He truely seemed more concerned for our safety than the legalities. We reassured him that we NEVER forget to unchamber our rifles. He said that he could write us up but didn't. He wished us luck and went on. He also said that he hadn't tagged one buck all day. Nice guy and went with the letter of the law. Yesterday, was shameful for DFG and today was fine work by the local DFG. I think I'll write a letter of thanks to the local DFG for todays encounter with the warden.

 

[boar slayer]

yeah ive had a simular expirence while heading to a hunting spot late at night used surefire light to see if road ahead was my turn yep this is it 1/2 mile later rollers what the f is going on stop talk with dfg warden explained what was up he still looked in my vehical we couldnt get to a gun if we had to he said i guess your not spot lighting and make dam shure we dont they had a lot of problems in this particular area .
at the end of this hunt we stopped to look at some antelope and guess who shows up with friends this is when i just laughed at them because i spent the weekend camped and hunting next to thier undercover guy in the field .

 

[jackrabbit]

m57jager, I have no comment on this thread, but maybe you should hold off on contacting DFG upper echelon supervisors in DFG, if that is your intent. I worked for over 25 years in CA state service, and there is no telling how a supervisor may or may not take a liking to a report of a discretionary decision by rank and file personnel if the DFG guy you encountered can be identified by your communication. Maybe I'm just a bit overthinking it, but consider it.

But I do agree, the encounter you described is exactly the type of encounters I have had with DFG LEO's for my entire lifetime experience hunting and fishing in CA. They have been more help with advice than any hinderance, as long as I was not breaking any rules.

A couple of guys down in SoCal years ago were way out of line, but I got no citation after their erroneous stating of the rules, so in the end, no harm, no foul I guess.

At any rate, I agree, there are stand up DFG personnel out in the woods.

 

[spectr17]

I got warned in MO one time for shining. It was a real deer in a cornfield and we backed up and hit it with the headlights just to take a second look. Warden who just happened to be coming the other way warned us not to do it again and let us off with a warning. We did have unchambered rifles and bows in the back of the truck. Since the shiners do the same thing it's kinda hard to tell who's legit or not. It used to be legal to shine deer at night in MO as long as you weren't armed but not anymore.

 

[suavegato]

WOW, glad I read this thread... I had NO IDEA that it was illegal to shine a light or headlights on a deer at night! I do it all the time, just to admire them... Never had a clue I was breaking any laws...

 

[6x7]

WOW, glad I read this thread... I had NO IDEA that it was illegal to shine a light or headlights on a deer at night! I do it all the time, just to admire them... Never had a clue I was breaking any laws...

Your only breaking the law if you have a weapon.

 

[ZEKEDAWG]

Your only breaking the law if you have a weapon.

exactly and that is why the dude got a ticket. he had a weapoin and ammo that was reasonably accessible. if you have no weapons then it is ok.
what code was he in violation of??

page 9 of the regulations

FISH AND GAMECODELAWSRELATED TOTHEUSEOFLIGHTS​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]FGC 2005.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](a) Except as otherwise authorized by this section, it is unlawful to use an artificial light to assist in the taking of game birds, game mammals, or game fish, except that this section shall not apply to sport fishing in ocean waters or other waters where night fishing is permitted if the lights are not used on or as part of the fishing tackle, commercial fishing, nor to the taking of mammals, the taking of which is governed by Article 2 (commencing with Section 4180) of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Chapter 3 of Part 3 of Division 4.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](b) It is unlawful for any person, or one or more persons, to throw or cast the rays of any spotlight, headlight, or other artificial light on any highway or in any field, woodland, or forest where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are commonly found, or upon any game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or her control any firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or otherwise pursued.
(c) It is unlawful to use or possess at any time any infrared or similar light used in connection [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]with an electronic viewing device or any night vision equipment, optical devices, including, but not limited to, binoculars or scopes, that use light-amplifying circuits that are electrical or battery powered, to assist in the taking of birds, mammals, amphibians, or fish.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](d) The provisions of this section do not apply to any of the following:
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](1) The use of a hand-held flashlight no larger, nor emitting more light, than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, provided that light is not affixed in any way to a weapon, or to the use of a lamp or lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](2) Headlights of a motor vehicle operated in a usual manner where there is no attempt or [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](3) To the owner, or his or her employee, of land devoted to the agricultural industry while on [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]that land, or land controlled by such an owner and in connection with the agricultural industry.
(4) To those other uses as the commission may authorize by regulation.
(e) A person shall not be arrested for violation of this section except by a peace officer.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Cal Kellogg]

I know there are folks here that support law enforcement no matter what…Their thinking is that if you don’t break the law you have nothing to worry about….Oh Really?????.... On the other hand there are folks like me that, while we don’t go about knowingly breaking the law and see poaching as a theft effecting all legitimate hunters, often look at the regulations and actions of the DFG with a raised eyebrow…

Read the quote below that I cut and pasted from the regulations posted above….

"It is unlawful for any person, or one or more persons, to throw or cast the rays of any spotlight, headlight, or other artificial light on any highway or in any field, woodland, or forest where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are commonly found... while having in his or her possession or under his or her control any firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or otherwise pursued."

Let’s get this straight…It is illegal for a person to “CAST THE RAYS OF ANY….HEADLIGHT”….on “ANY HIGHWAY”….where…”GAME MAMMALS…ARE COMMONLY FOUND”…while having a weapon capable of killing said mammal even though said mammal is not pursued etc.

Let that soak in…..

Have you ever driven to a hunting spot with a weapon in your vehicle for a legal hunt before sunrise? Have you ever driven home from a legal hunt (God forbid if you had a legally taken animal in your possession!!!!!!!!!!!!) with a weapon in your vehicle after sundown?

For 99.9999999999999999% of hunters the answer to both of these questions is yes….

Well I’ve got some bad news for you, if you answered yes to either of these questions, in the eyes of the DFG you were in violation of the law….Despite the fact that you paid money for your license and tags, followed the regs to the best of your ability and followed the rules that apply to driving on a public highway during darkness ie with your headlights on…you are, in the eyes of the DFG a law breaker…a dirty low down would be poacher if you will, ripe for prosecution. Intentions mean nothing…Simply by driving to or from your hunting spot with a weapon after dark or before sunrise puts you in violation.

What we have here is a prime example of why I have a hard time jumping up, waving the flag and saluting the DFG…This regulation is written in such a way that it makes every hunter a law breaker. It opens the door for you to be stopped, searched and ticketed simply because you are a hunter driving down a highway in an area where there may or may not be animals while it’s dark (technically it doesn’t even mention it being dark…If we took this at face value you could be driving around with your lights on when it’s not dark and still be in violation)…..All you need to do is drive down the highway while it’s dark with the headlights on with a weapon in the vehicle and you are breaking the law….

Sure if you don’t break the law you have nothing to worry about, but with regulations like these the DFG insures that EVERYONE is a law breaker….INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!

This is all to often standard operating procedure for the DFG, collect revenue by casting an incredibly broad net and ticketing every one it entangles regardless of actions or true intent....

To hell with real poachers, to hell with bolstering our dwindling deer herds, to hell with price control on resident tags and licenses, to hell with everything beyond writing those tickets and collecting those dollars!

There is the proviso written below that states...."(2) Headlights of a motor vehicle operated in a usual manner where there is no attempt or intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or nongame mammal."

Yet the issue of "intent" up to the officer...Were you driving too slow? Hit the breaks? Whatever, the officer has license to stop you and/or ticket you...At that point it's your word against the officer's word in court and I suspect that you are going to loose that fight 9 times out of 10....especially if you find yourself in the unlucky position of having driven past a robo deer sting operation...

 

[Common Sense]

Read the regs on shooting dove over a baited field. If you do so, you are guilty; even if you didn't bait it, you didn't know that it was baited, or had any way to tell if it was baited!!!!!!!