FHL $150 annual fee

[Huntr Pat]

https://mail.google.com/mail/?view=cm&fs=1&tf=1&to=usarmy.jbsa.imcom-hq.mbx.army-outdoor-recreation@mail.mil&su=IMCOM WAQ Email&body=Email contact for WAQ

http://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/pdf/r215_1.pdf
Elgibility.Patronage7–1. Eligibility
a. MWR programs will be established primarily for Armed Forces military personnel.
b. Ready Reserve members have the same priority as AD military personnel. Gray area retirees (retired reservists
under age 60) have the same priority as regular Army retirees for use of category C MWR programs only. Eligible
Family members may participate in MWR programs whether or not accompanied by the sponsor. Family members and
guests of first priority patrons assume the same priority.
c. If MWR facilities cannot accommodate all authorized patrons, the garrison commander will determine specific
use priorities. Such priorities are based on priorities establish in table 7–1.
d. Guests must be accompanied by authorized patrons and may participate in MWR programs, purchase items
incidental to participation, and consume food and beverages while on the premises. Guests include those participants at
functions arranged by an authorized patron. Otherwise, guests are not authorized resale purchases. Garrison commanders (or designees) will approve local rules governing the number of guests and the frequency of use at specific
facilities.
e. DOD organizations stationed or tenanted on an Army installation will be afforded the same facility use privileges
as those afforded personnel on the Army installation.
f. Military club membership and reciprocal patronage of military clubs are outlined in chapter 8.
g. Access to military exchanges and their programs (for example, package beverage stores) will be in accordance
with AR 215-8.
h. Patron eligibility criteria and priority of use are contained in table 7–1. For CYSS, eligibility is found in AR 608-
10.
Table 7–1
Morale, welfare, and recreation patronage authorizations
Category Unlimited Category C
Active duty (AD) military personnel and Families (includes U.S.
Coast Guard)
X
Members of the RC and Families (includes Ready Reserve (to include Scholarship/Contract ROTC Cadets) and National Guard,
and their Family members)
X
Delayed Entry/Delayed Training recruits X
Cadets of Armed Forces academies (USMA cadets have first priority at USMA)
X
Commissioned Corps of the Public Health Service and Commissioned Corps of National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
and their Family members
X
Retired military personnel from active duty and Family members.
Retired from the Reserves with pay and retired without pay (gray
area)
X
Retired from the Reserves with pay and retired without pay (gray
area)
X
Veterans with 100% service-connected disability, honorably discharged 4
X
34 AR 215–1 • 24 Septemb
j. Hunting and fishing. These programs promote the recreational pursuit of fish, fowl, and small and large game,
with emphasis on introductory hunting, fishing, and shooting activities. The following guidelines will apply:
(1) Fishing, hunting, and trapping will be in accordance with AR 200–3.
(2) Hunting and fishing programs will operate within MWR oversight and conduct game harvest procedures and
objectives in accordance with installation Facilities Engineer and applicable local, Federal, or host nation government
policies.
(3) Hunting and fishing events organized by military or civilian organizations will be coordinated in advance by the
military or civilian organization with the outdoor recreation program office or the DPW, as applicable.
(4) The facilities engineer will be responsible for the biological aspects of wildlife management (to include stocking
fish and game, maintaining habitats and feed plots, and determining and measuring the harvest).
(5) All hunters on Army property must have completed a hunter safety course or the equivalent, required by AR
350–19 prior to issuance of an installation hunting permit. Where States do not require a hunter safety course,
AR 215–1 • 24 September 2010 71

This is the headquarter in San Antonio,Tx

 

[ltdann]

The saga continues. The Outdoor Rec folks called me IRT to my elk application. Apparently, in order to get preference points for an unsuccessful draw, you MUST pay the FHL permit fee up front. Otherwise no preference points will be awarded. In effect, if you only pay the $50 elk draw application fee, you will always be in the bottom of the draw. I fired off another e-mail to Rick Bosch to verifiy this. I'm getting increasingly angry about this.

 

[CaliJeephuntr]

Seriously LtDann? This is getting more and more ridiculous.

 

[ltdann]

You ain't kiddin' brother, I'm really fried about the whole thing. If I didn't already have 3 years of pref points, I'd just not bother. The thing that really bothers me though, is that Rick and the ODR director can't understand what all the fuss is about. They see nothing wrong with what they've done or with the fee's. The ODR lady stuck to the story, that they're still cheaper than the surrounding operations. I KNEW this was going to happen when MWR to over from the environmental folks. As it is, the next time I draw an elk tag, will probably be my last trip to FHL. It's not worth it. Four -five years between draws, $100 a year, plus the $404 tag fee makes it a $800-900 tag. Just not worth it.

 

[Navy SWO]

The saga continues. The Outdoor Rec folks called me IRT to my elk application. Apparently, in order to get preference points for an unsuccessful draw, you MUST pay the FHL permit fee up front. Otherwise no preference points will be awarded. In effect, if you only pay the $50 elk draw application fee, you will always be in the bottom of the draw. I fired off another e-mail to Rick Bosch to verifiy this. I'm getting increasingly angry about this.

I spoke with Greg, who is the MWR employee for the Hunting and Fishing program to find out my options as well. He let me know that his clerk was out making calls to everyone who had mailed in the full $150 to see what they wanted to do (i.e. they will refund you $100 if you don't want a pref point.) He confirmed what you posted about not getting a pref point if you don't pay the whole fee up front. When I asked why that was the case, he explained that they made that decision a couple of years ago because processing all of the applications (elk, deer and hunting apps) was eating up all of their employee hours and they needed to fund more. He likened it to DFG charging processing fees. When I asked about making their prices match comparable civilian fees he acknowledged they didn't and was pretty adamant that that decision was made above his level (i.e. Rick Bosch). He was sympathetic, but not really able to do anything about it. I did ask about the number of apps last year with preference points, and for the hunt I applied for (444) there was one app with 19 pts and 9 with 18pts for the 8 tags last year. There is a pretty good chance of getting drawn as active duty without a point, but not guaranteed. For the archery and muzzleloader bull tags most of the tags went to folks with 19 or 20 pts. I decided to stay with the $150 in order get the point so I can definitely hunt next elk year or maybe move up to archery or muzzleloader bull next year. I will definitely be sending an email to Rick Bosch to complain and also find out why there is no price break for active duty Os.

 

[ltdann]

As a retired SWO, I have 3 years at 14 pts for 42 pts. I should draw, and it'll be the last time unless they radically change. It's crazy how they feel the $100 is justified. The state charges $8 for the same service. Jeez, they make it sound like it's a burden to take my money. The lady I talked to wanted to mail back my $150 money order and have me send her ANOTHER $100 money order, otherwise it'd be a hassle to get me a refund. REALLY?

 

[acldo6390]

The puzzling thing to me is that this "should" not be a MWR program it directly impacts/supports and creates funds for the environmental program which should have exclusive use of all funds recieved. MWR can manage but to promote the sliding pay scale is off limits! Mixing appropriated and nonappropriated funds is a difficult and quite frankly a very poor buisiness practice with all kinds of potential legal issues, many of which have started to surface on this forum. I was successful on my second attempt to draw an elk tag while on active duty and had calculated it would take three to four years to be in the window for an elk draw now that I am retired, I am not willing to support a program that is being mismanaged so I'm done! I just called my daughter (now on active duty) and she is going to apply and I will happily assist her in filling her tag (provided they do not add on a charge for someone assisting her, you know its been thought of). VAFB gets my buisiness and support from now on and I will join the club on that base and still be less out of the pocket than I would if utilizing FHL.
Mark

 

[ltdann]

Mark, I'm with you on this. Something is definetly fishy in Denmark. It wasn't that long ago, it cost NOTHING to apply. You paid the hunter permit fee and the tag fee, when notified of a successful draw. If you were a local guy or within a reasonable driving distance and expected to hunt regularly, you paid the annual permit as a matter of course. When the program belonged to base environmental it ran well, I thought. When MWR gets it, it's a hassle and we have to fund more employee's to process the application. Nothing says they have to process all the applications in 30 days. They can spread it out. After all, the first elk hunt isn't till OCT.

 

[acldo6390]

Mark, I'm with you on this. Something is definetly fishy in Denmark. It wasn't that long ago, it cost NOTHING to apply. You paid the hunter permit fee and the tag fee, when notified of a successful draw. If you were a local guy or within a reasonable driving distance and expected to hunt regularly, you paid the annual permit as a matter of course. When the program belonged to base environmental it ran well, I thought. When MWR gets it, it's a hassle and we have to fund more employee's to process the application. Nothing says they have to process all the applications in 30 days. They can spread it out. After all, the first elk hunt isn't till OCT.

Dan, It is bugging me too. I'll let my jets cool for the weekend and if I'm still 100% sure that I'm correct I'll stop by my local IG office and file a formal complaint. I am very reluctant to do so as it is a very in depth or deep dive into a command which can be painful even when innocent or found not to be guilty of any wrong doing, they usually turn up other issues when investigating a command. I hope you draw this year and do not have to endure this drama next year too!

 

[ltdann]

Yeah the IG route is pretty invasive. I just can't shake the feeling that we're being unjustly taken advantage of. When VAFB raised their rates, tree stands and pop-up blinds became available for checkout. At FHL, I've seen nothing to indicate MWR services have benefited hunters. Hell, the building roof collapsed on their watch. Is there a plan to improve service to hunters and if so, what is it? We're a low maintenance crowd. We need a toilet and a place to water. Most of the folks that have to pay the whole $150 aren't authorized to use ANY service inside the cantonment area. It's outrageous.

 

[Navy SWO]

As a retired SWO, I have 3 years at 14 pts for 42 pts. I should draw, and it'll be the last time unless they radically change.

Dan,

The way I understand the pref points as they explained today is that you start with however many points you have based on your category. I am still active duty so I start with 18 points for this draw. If I don't draw and apply next year I will have 19 points, 20 the next year, etc. If you have 3 years of no draw and your category gets you 14 you will have 17 this year. Based on last years apps and assuming this year is similar you are probably looking at another year of no draw. It sounds like none of the hunts last year went to anyone with less than 18 pts. All but one or two of the archery/muzzy bull hunts went to folks with more than 18 pts. Which hunt are you applying for?

I decided to stay with the full permit because I should get drawn for a cow tag next year if I don't this year. I have two or maybe three more hunting seasons left in CA until I go off to my twilight tour somewhere other than CA and by golly I am going to get another elk at FHL.

My cynical idea is that the base is trying to slant the odds to their regulars who are stationed on the base or work there as civilians because they will buy the permits and hunt anyway. By forcing us non-locals to pay up front I'm sure they are hopefull less people will apply from out of area. Greg from MWR as much as admitted that they aren't set up to handle all the apps they get anyway and they are looking for ways to decrease the admin load. I suppose if they can rake in the $$$ doing so, even better by their thinking. From what he said it also sounded like this was being driven by MWR, not the base CO or deputy.

On another note, I asked why they decreased elk tags this year. He said it wasn't due to decreased number of elk, but because they did not have enough general weapons areas available for the hunts due to training last year and they had too many complaints and too crowded areas for the rifle hunters. Seems like a better answer would be to increase the number of muzzy and archery tags, but I guess I'm not in charge. I wonder how I convince the Army to let me be the Base Commander there as an exchange officer?

 

[ltdann]

Check on the point system. That really makes more sense. I largely agree with your assessment of MWR motivations. Ever since they assumed control, it's been evident they don't understand hunters or how to run a hunting program.

I normally apply for the Thanksgiving cow hunt because it's less likely that training is being conducted. If I don't draw this year, I'll certainly put in for a bull hunt next year. I go prepared to hunt all areas. I bring the whole tamale, rifle, ML and bow. I find that gives me options when elk are pushed and transit areas.

 

[Navy SWO]

+1 on bringing the whole tamale. I brought my muzzleloader when I was drawn a couple of years ago and was glad for it. I pretty much had several areas all to myself and took a nice cow on the second day. Having my 5 year old son along to "help" made it even better. Good luck to you in the draw (since you didn't apply for "my" hunt.) FHL said they were planning on holding the drawing on 19 Jun.

 

[Bowhunter_619]

I got a call yesterday from the MWR folks, they informed me my permit would be on hold until I sent an extra $25 even though they had received my packet before bumping up the price from 75 to 100 bucks. I just went ahead and sent it in since I really would like to do an elk hunt. This is my second year applying.

 

[Superduty65]

I got my call on Friday explaining about the new prices and about the money I sent. This whole thing is a three ring circus right now.

 

[Phil80]

Well guess that kills my dream of a Ca Elk.

 

[ltdann]

I sent yet another e-mail to Rick on Friday evening explaining that no one in their right mind would pay $50 to enter a draw that they had virtually no chance of winning without the prefrence points. I also asked what MWR is doing for hunters other than processing our applications for $100-150. He claims that the fees were based on Soldier and Hunter surveys and input and the "fee structure committe" voted the new fee schedule based on input. Did anyone out there participate in a survey? I certainly didn't.

 

[Huntr Pat]

Heck no, I haven't seen or have not heard of a survey. But I can only guess it was not sent to the major public that hunt there the most.

Got this recent email from Susan clizbe;

Hi Mr. Alcisto -

If you haven't visited the website since Friday, you may not have noticed some revisions to the hunting program. After hearing from hunters, the command took another look at this year's program and realized it had perhaps been oversimplified. Please visit the page and read the memo and new fee schedule. I hope that will lessen your concerns.
http://www.liggett.army.mil/sites/fishhunt/hunting.asp

Thanks for writing, and have a great week. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

*************************
Susan Clizbe
Fort Hunter Liggett Public Affairs
831-386-2690 office
831-269-9137 mobile
susan.clizbe@us.army.mi
lOver simplified: updated fee's is still absurd

	Conservation Fee	Activity Fee	Total Fee
General Public Annual	$65.00	$85.00	$150.00
General Public Two Day	$30.00	$45.00	$75.00
Pig only Two Day	$70.00	$25.00	$25.00
Military Veterans[SUP]*1[/SUP]	$65.00	$60.00	$125.00
Active Duty Military (E7+) & Retirees[SUP]*2[/SUP]	$65.00	$35.00	$100.00
Active Duty Military E5 & E6 [SUP]*3[/SUP]	$65.00	$35.00	$75.00
Youth Hunting [SUP]*4[/SUP]	$15.00	$20.00	$35.00
E4 and Below No Fee [SUP]*5[/SUP]
While You Wait Processing		$20.00	$20.00
Elk Only Application Fee (non-refundable) [SUP]*6[/SUP]		$50.00	$50.00

[SUP]1[/SUP] Must submit DD214 or VA ID Card with a copy of drivers license or state ID

[SUP]2[/SUP] Permit applicant must be a military member on active duty status E7 or Retiree (submit copy of CAC Card or Blue Retiree ID Card)

[SUP]3[/SUP] Permit applicant must be a military member on active duty status E5-E6 (submit copy of CAC Card)

[SUP]4[/SUP] Permit applicant must present a copy of a CDFW youth hunting license.

[SUP]5[/SUP] Permit applicant must be a military member on active duty status E4 or below (submit copy of CAC Card)

[SUP]6[/SUP] Will require permit if selected. Application fee will be applied to permit cost. No additional preference points will be awarded following year.

2013-2014 Hunting Permit Application 2013-2014 Hunting Permit Fee Structure

 

[Navy SWO]

Hunter Pat,

Is what you posted directly from the email you received? The application on the FHL website states the $100 fee is for E7 - E9 and there is no category for active duty officers. What you have makes more sense, but doesn't seem to match up with what have on their site.

Thanks

 

[Huntr Pat]

navy swo, sent you a pm