- Thread starter Steve Walters
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Good lord, I know you don't know how to read, since you've misunderstood almost everythig I've written, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and provide you some reading material - in the hope that maybe something might sink in.
http://www.buckdeer.com/kinetic.htm
http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/
There's only about a million more articles about KE in bowhunting, not virtual KE. Like I said before, it is one factor, but it is a factor, it's not vitually nothing. Now I know how you like to "win" on these forums, but to me, it's like the Special Olympics - yep, you win, but you're still.....
Never did I confuse KE with anything, certainly not momentum. Just try reading and understanding first. Again, when bowhunting KE is one important factor, period. If you understood what it was, then you would simply agree. Never did I say that KE kills game - oh, yeah, forgot about your lack of reading comprehension. Go back and re-read please. There also more factors: shot placement, penetration, wound channel....etc. Your entire premise was/is, that KE doesn't matter and that is means "virtually nothing" This is just wrong, period. Any comparison to rifle hunting is just plain stupid, since we're talking about bowhunting, and in bowhunting KE is a factor - how anyone could argue that it isn't is a mystery.
http://www.buckdeer.com/kinetic.htm
http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/
There's only about a million more articles about KE in bowhunting, not virtual KE. Like I said before, it is one factor, but it is a factor, it's not vitually nothing. Now I know how you like to "win" on these forums, but to me, it's like the Special Olympics - yep, you win, but you're still.....
Never did I confuse KE with anything, certainly not momentum. Just try reading and understanding first. Again, when bowhunting KE is one important factor, period. If you understood what it was, then you would simply agree. Never did I say that KE kills game - oh, yeah, forgot about your lack of reading comprehension. Go back and re-read please. There also more factors: shot placement, penetration, wound channel....etc. Your entire premise was/is, that KE doesn't matter and that is means "virtually nothing" This is just wrong, period. Any comparison to rifle hunting is just plain stupid, since we're talking about bowhunting, and in bowhunting KE is a factor - how anyone could argue that it isn't is a mystery.
D
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I wish to change my answer to the OP's question and the number is now 3. I recently have been pursued by a serious bore. ^^
asaxon
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Physics of meat balls
I have no intention of getting in the middle of this business about arrows - in the words of Manuel from Faulty Towers, "I know nothing". But I was interested in the KE vs Momentum thing as I didn't know the difference so I went and looked it up. I thought others like me might be interested in the "answer" - especially since in involves meat balls. (PS - a one kg meat ball is one heck of a big meat ball!)
Beginning students often confuse kinetic energy and momentum. Kinetic energy and momentum are NOT THE SAME!
Scalar Versus Vector:
An important difference is that momentum is a vector quantity - it has a direction in space, and momenta combine like forces do. Kinetic energy is a scalar quantity - it has no direction in space, and kinetic energies combine like "regular numbers."
Dependence on Velocity:
The momentum of an object is proportional to the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you double its momentum. The kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you quadruple its kinetic energy. This has important consequences...
A Thought Experiment:
Suppose that you were captured by an evil physicist who gave you the following choice:
You must either:
Hopefully, you picked the truck! It's a big truck, but it is moving rather slowly (about walking speed), so assuming you don't fall down when it hits you (That would be bad...) the truck is just going to bump into you and move you out of the way.
On the other hand, you probably suspect intuitively that the meatball is a very dangerous object. It isn't that massive, but it is moving very fast (about 10 football fields per second) - and when it hits you it would do considerable damage to you, and keep going!
Consider the momentum and kinetic energy of the truck and the meatball:
Truck:
I have no intention of getting in the middle of this business about arrows - in the words of Manuel from Faulty Towers, "I know nothing". But I was interested in the KE vs Momentum thing as I didn't know the difference so I went and looked it up. I thought others like me might be interested in the "answer" - especially since in involves meat balls. (PS - a one kg meat ball is one heck of a big meat ball!)
"Kinetic Energy is NOT Momentum"
Beginning students often confuse kinetic energy and momentum. Kinetic energy and momentum are NOT THE SAME!
Scalar Versus Vector:
An important difference is that momentum is a vector quantity - it has a direction in space, and momenta combine like forces do. Kinetic energy is a scalar quantity - it has no direction in space, and kinetic energies combine like "regular numbers."
Dependence on Velocity:
The momentum of an object is proportional to the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you double its momentum. The kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you quadruple its kinetic energy. This has important consequences...
A Thought Experiment:
Suppose that you were captured by an evil physicist who gave you the following choice:
- Stand in front of a 1000 kg truck moving at 1 m/s, or
- Stand in front of a 1 kg meatball moving at 1000 m/s.
Hopefully, you picked the truck! It's a big truck, but it is moving rather slowly (about walking speed), so assuming you don't fall down when it hits you (That would be bad...) the truck is just going to bump into you and move you out of the way.
On the other hand, you probably suspect intuitively that the meatball is a very dangerous object. It isn't that massive, but it is moving very fast (about 10 football fields per second) - and when it hits you it would do considerable damage to you, and keep going!
Consider the momentum and kinetic energy of the truck and the meatball:
Truck:
Truck's momentum = mv = (1000 kg)(1 m/s) = 1000 kgm/s Truck's kinetic energy = 0.5 mv[SUP]2[/SUP] = (0.5)(1000 kg)(1 m/s)[SUP]2[/SUP] = 500 Joules
Meatball:
Meatball's momentum = mv = (1 kg)(1000 m/s) = 1000 kg m/s Meatball's kinetic energy = 0.5 mv[SUP]2[/SUP] = (0.5)(1 kg)(1000 m/s)[SUP]2[/SUP] = 500 000 Joules
We know intuitively that the meatball is more dangerous than the truck, yet the momenta of the truck and the meatball are the same. On the other hand, the meatball has 1 000 times the kinetic energy of the truck! Clearly, momentum and kinetic energy tell different things about an object!
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Farmerdoug
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ASAXON, I totally get your point. So you're saying that if I substitute my 100gr broadhead for a 1kg meatball, my arrow will do twice as much damage. Got it! And all this time my wife has been telling me that watching the "swamp people" and "gator boys" was going to make me stupid. Boy was she wrong........
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D
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asaxon, if you were a charging pig would you rather be shot by an arrow or a bullet?
Bruce I know you didnt ask me. But I have some questions.
Arrow from a 20 pound kids bow and field point, or arrow from a 60 pound adult bow with broadhead ?
Bullet from a .22 short or a .375 H&H ?
I would rather someone just throw me a meatball. LOL
Arrow from a 20 pound kids bow and field point, or arrow from a 60 pound adult bow with broadhead ?
Bullet from a .22 short or a .375 H&H ?
I would rather someone just throw me a meatball. LOL
asaxon
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Humm. Tough question...... I think the answer is NEITHER! Furthermore I'd rather be a charging bear (or hog) as in this picture by Ray Troll as long as they don't reject my credit card.
And as for the meatball, I'm with Catchdog - I'd prefer it to be stationary and I'd eat it. In the physics example, the meatball was going 895 mph so you'd never hear it coming as was travelling faster than sound. A stealth meatball no less.
Boy - talk about getting off topic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErgdUhZteqw
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D
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Fear the kenetic killer meatball! Be afraid...be very afraid!!!
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Sigma
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The reason for high penetration of an arrow at substantially lower velocities, lies in the high sectional density of the arrow. Example: If you were to use an arrow even smaller in diameter and longer, penetration would be even higher. That's why I like to shoot the 6.5x55. Loaded right, it outclasses the .270 especially at longer ranges. Long projectiles fly better and penetrate better.
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As far as penetration goes with an arrow it depends on what you shoot. Shoot a bucket of sand with a arrow and a .270 bullet. The arrow will have deeper penetration. Now shoot a 1/4 plate of steel with a arrow and a .270 . Bullet goes through arrow bounces off.
No no no.
If you substitute a meatball for your arrow, your FOOD BILL will do 2x as much damage to your checking account. Not to mention your waistline, cholesterol level, heart health and beer budget.
Which would then make you LOOK like one o' them fat swamp rats you see on TV alla time.
I hunts bear with a switch. Dont know nothin bout no KE . But ifin you tag one on da nose ya betta keep a taggin it, hims will be up set . When he gets close nuf ya turn da switch round and pokes um in da eyes. DEEP TOO.
asaxon
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HELP - I'm lost. I guess I have to get cable/sat TV to see Swamp People, Gaitor Guys etc to bring my IQ up to "standard" as this is going right over (?under) my head y'all...
rem4me
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I got charged by a sow brown bear in Alaska and when I was sixteen I shot my first pig a big boar that went into the thickest nastiest brush you can imagine. It was the most exciting hunt imaginable going after him even though in hindsight that boar could have torn me up in that thick stuff. I heard him crashing through it and then silent....he was dead as a door nail in the thick stuff. Anyways for me nothing beats dangerous game and a wild boar is one for sure. i hope someday to hunt cape buffalo and an inland grizzly.
easymoney
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wild1,
I can say for sure and for certain(because I do bowhunt pigs) that all the charts or formulas in the world won't mean a piles of beans. Pigs have incredible sense of smell not much in the way of visual, but they have a uncany knack for ducking the string. I have walked up to within ten yards of feeding pigs and made a shot at one yet it somehow dropped down below the arrow. I have shot pigs and turkeys standing broadside at ten yards (even at 40 yards)and nailed them deadon and they dropped in a matter of a few yards away. I have shot pigs in the boiler room at ten yards and had them run off over 100 yards onto un permited ranches where I could not recover them.
Back to the topic, yes I have been charged by wild pigs. I turned chicken and climbed the closest tree I could find. Most pigs do not chare, they for the most part are not aware we are there, if precautions are taken. If you are smoking or smell like diesel fuel you will scented. Most wild pigs are already accostomed to ranch activites and do not care...
I can say for sure and for certain(because I do bowhunt pigs) that all the charts or formulas in the world won't mean a piles of beans. Pigs have incredible sense of smell not much in the way of visual, but they have a uncany knack for ducking the string. I have walked up to within ten yards of feeding pigs and made a shot at one yet it somehow dropped down below the arrow. I have shot pigs and turkeys standing broadside at ten yards (even at 40 yards)and nailed them deadon and they dropped in a matter of a few yards away. I have shot pigs in the boiler room at ten yards and had them run off over 100 yards onto un permited ranches where I could not recover them.
Back to the topic, yes I have been charged by wild pigs. I turned chicken and climbed the closest tree I could find. Most pigs do not chare, they for the most part are not aware we are there, if precautions are taken. If you are smoking or smell like diesel fuel you will scented. Most wild pigs are already accostomed to ranch activites and do not care...
