Opinions please.. JJHACK and others

[daddy63]

Hi all,

I'm learning a lot on this forum from you all with much more experience than I have. In anticipation of a safari one day(year) I'm trying to gather info on a plains game hunt. I have a good idea what game I would like to take...kudu,gemsbok,zebra, and hopefully an eland are the main animals I would like to pursue.

In reading about JJ and other PH's experience with these animals, the fact of them running in herds and trying to follow a blood trail and tracks is something I hadn't considered. Good info. I was planning on using my 7 Rem mag w\either 160 grain Partions or 140\160 grain TSX. I know some PH's are recommending a 30 cal. as a minimum due to the blood trail and herd animals and all.

Would I get that much better results with a 30 06 and 165 TSX as compared to my 7 mag with 140\160 TSX. I don't think I would but I have zero experience with African animals so that is why I ask.

Thanks for your feedback and probably revisiting this question again.

Take care.

 

[SDHNTR]

If you already have a 7mm and shoot it well, use it with confidence. If you have both, take the 30-06.

 

[bpnclark]

Both rifles will take the animals you want. I hunted with a 300 Win and my family and friends have taken PGs animals with 300 Ultra, 270 and bows. I’m going back in 2010 and I just picked up my PG “Insurance Policy” a CZ 375. Just remember that you have to pay for every animal you hit. Elands are huge and expensive animals.

 

[Gray Ghost Safaris]

I'm 100% with taking the rifle you know and shoot well. Shot placement is everything in hunting. Good bullets are a major part of it, but the 30-06 won't give you any advantage over your 7 mag. In fact, compare velocity and foot pounds at 100, 200 & 300 yards using a 160 grain bullet. You can go as high as 175 grains with factory 7 mag ammo, but the 160 will do fine. Many of my Hunters use the 7 mag and have no problems (other than damage to small antelope with ill conceived shot placement). Eland should be taken with double lung shots only however. Pass up other shots. JJ posted some excellent advice, and he personally witnesses as much game taken as anyone you'll meet every year. So if you question yourself with the 7 mag, go up in caliber but I'd take a .338 or .375 if I had concerns. Enjoy Africa, you'll never be the same afterward. GGS

 

[jjhack]

I have written a number of posts regarding the blood trail aspect of the cartridges your interested in. Not much more I can add to that. There are or will be a number of Nay Sayers regarding what I'm telling you about the diameter difference, believe who you wish, but the almost 20% greater bullet size with the .308 daimeter VS the .284 diameter is a massive difference where blood flow is concerned. When you double the size of the bullet diameter after it mushrooms, the 20% is proportional and that massive difference is a real world advantage on the exit side of the animal.

Over the years we have seen the great majority of lost game has been shot with sub 30 caliber guns. Anyone can have a few animals in the bag with great success and assume they all happen the same way. It's when you start seeing 1000's of animals that the resolution becomes crystal clear for you. One thing to make better understood, even though there is an almost 20% difference in size of the hole, the 30/06 is not going to provide some magical fountain of blood. It's far better then anything smaller, but it's not in the same league as a 8mm .338, .358, .375 .458 etc. There must be a line in the sand where a minimum level of blood flow and power exist. Much the same way that the 375HH is the minimum DG cartridge and pleny of folks with a .338 win mag cry foul to their favorite cartridge being deemed unacceptable.

The line in the sand is 30 caliber with most experienced Outfitters and PH's. You're certainly welcome to bring less, the suggestion was 30 caliber and what I have typed here is the driving force for that. After a long career in this field you begin to see things add up. One of those is the lost game which is most frequently from cartridges shooting less then 30 caliber. The next step down is a 20% difference in hole size, that is a significant difference!

Here is an older post, that I had up in 2006 regarding the hunters using my 30/06.
I have recovered and recorded a lot of information on the bullets used this season from my loaner 30/06 rifle.

First some of the facts and details regarding the loads and the gun used.

Rifle: Model 70 Winchester PacNor 23” barrel in standard 30/06 cartridge

Winchester Brass
Federal 210M primers
IMR4350 powder 58 grains
Chronographed at 2900 plus at 55deg F

Game shot by 6 different hunters six male one female

6 warthogs
12 impala
6 Kudu bulls
1 Kudu cow
5 Zebra
3 waterbuck
6 wildebeest
4 Red Hartebeest
4 Blesbok
2 Nyala
1 Steenbok
1 Gemsbok

51 total animals. One was not recovered, a Blue Wildebeest was lost although a confirmed hit with a short blood trail.

Shortest shot was a impala at about 40 feet, longest shots were a Zebra at a laser measured 237 yards, Blue Wildebeest at 198 yards, Kudu Bull at 225, and Impala at 177 yards all measured with my LRF 1200.

35 were shot with the Barnes TSX bullets. 7 were recovered
6 were shot with the Federal Fusion factory loads
6 were shot with Hornady Interbonds
4 were shot with the PMC factory loads

My unbiased assessment is as follows. However I must first say that I was admittedly very skeptical of the Barnes bullets based on my prior extensive experience with the original X bullet design. I must also admit to not being very impressed with the Fusions lack of velocity at only 2700plus fps. The PMC bullets were on hand and used to share the difference between factory cup and core bullets and premium handloads. The Interbonds were already a well known performer and had a lot of respect from me.

My rifle was zeroed with the X bullets and shooting hole touching groups at 100 meters. Prior to departure I shot a three shot group to foul the barrel. Upon arrival I shot a 2 shot group to prove the travel did not compromise the scope adjustments. There were 5 shots now through the barrel. Each hunter using this rifle also shot it before their hunt started. The Fusion, PMC, and Interbond bullets would shoot into about a 3+” group mixed POI's with the settings used for the TSX bullets.

The Federal Fusion Bullets: Underpowered for bigger game. The lack of velocity and the unpredictable bullet shapes left me unimpressed. Although they held together they under penetrated and fell short of my desired performance hopes. It’s an excellent inexpensive deer and smaller big game bullet but does not have the kind of killing power I expect with a 30/06 using other loads and bullets. A good choice for deer, impala, blesbok, but I would not likely choose them for anything bigger or even on the tough little warthog. I stopped using this bullet for further shooting on game based on the early limited performance on the recovered game and bullets. With the shallow penetration and oddly shaped mushrooms I was not confident to shoot game as tough as wildebeest, gemsbok and zebra with these bullets.

PMC Bullets: As can be expected with these bullets being Cup and Core design they will kill about like the Fusion bullets. If everything is perfect they work fine, but when something goes wrong they will not provide the edge I would like to see in my bullets. All of them failed to stay in one piece and all lost much if not all functional weight retention.

Hornady Interbonds: Work flawless and 100% predictable 4 out of the 6 were recovered and all had massive expansion with great weight retention. Another hunter used these bullets in his 30/06 AI and had identical performace and recovery percentages as my standard 30/06. The AI version was about 90fps faster at 3000fps. A better bullet would be difficult to choose. I have already posted dozens of pictures and text on these bullets in the past. This years experience is the same. It's a class act by Hornady and difficult to choose another bullet over this design.

The Barnes TSX bullet: Well this was the one that drove this project for me. Although I am very pleased with the performance. I am very happy with the results of so many deadly shots on big tough game animals. I’m still skeptical about some of what I have seen. The 7 recovered bullets look almost identical and have from what I can see 100% weight retention. Not a single petal was broken off and all expanded from the close range 40 yard shots to the longer near 250 yard shots. Some exits were massive and the blood was flowing freely. Others showed me a bore diameter hole and not a drop of blood from the exit. I’m stumped as to how these bullets exit with an exact bore diameter hole? Yet some others have a huge exit hole. I had about a 20% recovered bullet rate from these bullets. The lowest recovery percentage of any bullet I have ever used. Exits are the norm with the TSX. I had a bullet zip clean through the shoulders of a Big Zebra at 237 yards which included the vertebra and one scapula above the shoulders. This is enough mass that I have seen it stop a 270 grain Swift A frame from a 375HH plenty of times. Yet a 165 grain TSX from a 30/06 passed through. 4 zebra were shot with the 30/06. One needed a follow up shot, all 4 of the TSX bullets passed through these zebra. Only the one follow up shot was inside one of them. Zebra, Gemsbok, and Blue Wildebeest are about the best bullet stopping plains game we have. All three species were shot clean through with this bullet. Few provided a good blood trail often due to the bore diameter exit holes. Those that had good blood trails when recovered always had good exit holes too.

Here is an Impala with a noticeable exit hole but you can clearly see there is no blood flow.

I have 4 other TSX bullets I could photo and post here. However they are identical to the first two in this photo. They would be difficult to tell apart had I not marked them before I left! The only oddball in the group is the one from the zebra. It was recovered inside the heart. It has a wrinkled petal which you can see in this photo. All the others are exactly the same.


The rifle was not cleaned, barrel swabbed out, or oiled during the entire trip. On my last evening I hunted hard for a warthog. I walked from 2:30 PM til dark about 6PM I was hunting alone and looking for a whopper warthog I had seen twice in the prior several weeks I had been hunting here. In the closing moments of light about 5:55 I saw what looked like a shooter. At 75 yards he was trotting parallel to the road I was on, and slightly quartering away from me through the bush. When the warthog cleared a bush and left me with a fleeting moment between bushes I leveled the upper crosshair and touched off the trigger when it was layed behind the last rib. It appeared as if I rolled him over but the muzzle flash was too bright. I walked to the spot and saw a spot of blood. Then there in the flashlight beam just ahead he layed dead. The blood flow was significant and the exit was through the opposite scapula.

Several times I tested the accuracy during the week with targets. Each time the bullets were into the 1” square “bullseye” on the target at 100 meters. With nearly 60 shots fired during this trip and no cleaning I trusted this rifle and bullet combination on the last moment shot at the warthog. There was simply no fouling problems with these TSX bullets and this PacNor barrel!

I would certainly feel a whole lot better if the exits looked like they had more consistency in size. However I have also come to another probably arguable conclusion with the TSX and the 30/06. I would much prefer to have a 30/06 with this bullet and a rangefinder then a 300mag of any make without a rangefinder. I feel 100% confident that these bullets will penetrate and shoot accurately as far as I would like to shoot. Say 400 yards or so. If you know the distance with the rangefinder hitting the target is not complicated or risky with low wind. These 165 grain TSX bullets in a 30/06 will out perform a 300 magnum with a standard cup and core bullet every time. Sure you can up weight with a 300 magnum and use the 180’s. However if the 30/06 killed 50 of 51 tough big game animals I’m not sure moving to the 300 mag is a practical choice if you want more power. I think moving to the 338 is much more logical. If shooting long range 450 yards plus is the reason then would I agree. However a rangefinder with a 30/06 is still a very do-able shot with these TSX bullets on a calm day.

So do I switch now from the Hornady Interbonds I love so much to the TSX bullets? …………..Wow talk about a tough choice! The TSX shoots a tiny bit better in Accuracy, the tips don’t deform, they seat very tight in the brass with the groves. They don’t have the 100% internal damage consistency that the Interbonds have, but they are close and I cannot explain why the exit holes are bore diameter on some of the game. I do have a photo coming of the exit on a zebra. It looks like the stallion was shot with a small broad head. It has 4 slices about ¼” long each. It’s a brilliant exit hole. Why don’t they all show this? Maybe 35 big animals under nearly identical conditions is still not enough information? I will say that If I only saw 10-12 of the best exits I would swear these were the best bullets on earth no question, hands down, end of story. I may yet agree to this statement. However there were those few that leave me wondering why a tiny little exit hole as if the bullet did not open or the petals all sheared off? ( no petals ever found inside) I will continue to use them until the first time I find one that is unopened inside an animal. If that does not happen I may not use anything else in this rifle. I think they make a better large big game, Elk, bear, zebra, wildebeest, gemsbok, eland, waterbuck, moose, etc bullet then the Interbond because the exits at least in theory should provide more blood flow. I think the interbonds will provide much more explosive impact and internal trauma on deer sized game like antelope, sheep, blesbok, impala, etc.

They do not have a similar POI or load to shoot well from my rifle. They are as incompatible with a single scope setting as possible. I will have to pick one and stick with it. So for now I’ll stay with the TSX. As far as I’m concerned the TSX does more with the available power of the 30/06 then the Interbond does. The much higher frequency of exits is a benefit to good blood trails. I know my weakness as a confirmed bullet recovery junky even though I know they should all exit.

I’m not sure you can make a mistake in choosing between the 165 grain AFrame, Interbond, Accubond, TSX, or Partition, The one that shoots best in your barrel and gets a minimum level of functional velocity should do fine. I guess having to choose between the 165 grain Interbond and the 165 grain TSX for me is actually a good problem to have.

 

[daddy63]

Awesome thank you JJ... that is the article I was looking for but couldn't find.

Thank you all for the help gentlemen. I'm certainly not opposed to buying a new rifle for Africa, just trying to decide if I should keep the 7 mag and buy a bigger round, like a 35 Whelen or such, or get a 30 06 instead.

All of your info is very helpful so thanks again.

 

[jjhack]

Since you have the 7mm and would actually consider another gun, I would lean towards a standard caliber which would get you ammo much easier, and allow easy access to proper head stamped cases which are mandatory for travel.

The 338 is the logical choice. Do you reload? The 338 is without a doubt one of the finest all around cartridges ever made, and might be argueably the best elk cartridge ever made. If you reload then shooitng some really nice loads with the 338 that are shoulder friendly and 100% flawless in function would be a great option.

210 grain bonded bullets or the TSX at 2700 to 2800fps is a killer good Plains game load and easy to shoot as well. The 35 Whelen is one of the finest rifle cartridges ever made, but......... try finding ammo, and proper headstamped cases. They are not stocked many places. For local hunting around home the 35 Whelen is a fine choice, but going 1/2 way around the earth it's not at all common, matter a fact I've never seen or heard of a single one owned by a local there.

 

[daddy63]

JJHACK,

I do reload for my 7 mag but I'm pretty green at it. I would love to get a 338. I hear a lot of good things about it including it's recoil but I'm sure after awhile it wouldn't be too bad. the 210 TSX sounds like a winner also.
Good point about the 35 Whelen though and the availability of ammo. It seems the 338 could be found most places.

It seems to me the 30 06 and 7 mag are pretty close so a step up to the 338 makes good sense. Again, thanks for the help, I know you have covered this before a time or hundred.

Take care.

 

[BigSwad]

I can only say from my limited experience in RSA that my .375 H&H is not that bad to shot. If going for another rifle, then I would consider it. I used mine with our handloaded 270 grain Barnes TSX bullets and it did a great job. Only animal I shot more than once was the Eland, and it was going to expire, it was more insurance than anything. The CZ I have in Safari magnum is not a bad gun to shoot. I don't know if its the design of the stock or what, but it didnt seem to have nearly the kick Iexpected. I ran a box or more of Federal Premium through it one day at the range with no additional padding and I had not one shoulder bruise. Out in the field, I didn't really notice it that much. I can tell you on the smaller plains game it knocked them all down and the rest didn't go far.

I had considered taking my 7mm mag, and was going to until I took my bow, but kind of glad I went ahead and took the .375 H&H. I mounted a Zeiss Conquest on it in 3x9x40 with Talley rings, the detachable kind. That way I had the scope with me in my carry on and put it back on once in RSA. Worked like a charm.


Attached are photos of the bullet recovered from my Kudu I shot.

 

[jjhack]

You recovered a 270 TSX from a kudu! Wow, Kudu are one of the softest of big game in Africa, They are not much for stopping bullets.

What kind of shot angle was it, I surprised you were able to keep it inside.

Where you shooting handloads? What load was it?

 

[BigSwad]

Well the angle I was shooting had it angling away from me at about 30 degrees with its head to my left. It was about a 85 yard shot. It actually went through the ribcage and through the opposite shoulder and ended up under the skin on the outside of the shoulder. I was surprised how well the bullet held up. The handloads were 78grains of H414 I think. I can't remember if it was that or another powder. My buddy has it written down at his house.

 

[jjhack]

Please don't mistake my questions as antagonistic or in disbelief. It's just a surprise for me. One of those odd situations that make people argue internal ballistics day in and day out.

I've seen a hella lotta game shot with that same bullet and cartridge. My rifle shoots it at just over 2800fps. It takes a lot of mass to stop that thing. Must have just been lined up perfectly to reamin inside.

I did shoot a wounded impala in the tail as it ran at 70-90 yards away. That impala rolled end over end for a long way. When we arrived there was a hole in the tail, went through the bone of the tail, crushed the pelvis, length wise through the body exiting the upper back at the slope of the neck, re-entering the skin of the neck, breaking the spine in the neck, and and coming to a rest under the skin of the throat. 3 skin penetrations, and breaking Vertebra in three different places. I was still surprised it did not exit!

I shot another one with this, a surprise too. It was a warthog. I shot it for myself, quartering away, but very steep angle. It entered the rear ham, exited the front of the ham, then into the body behind the last rib, from there it exited the body behind the opposite front leg. It re-entered the leg, broke the leg bone, exited the leg, and re-entered the head into the cheek behind the jaw.

Warthogs are very tough this was 6 skin penetrations on one animal at one time. Also the broken femur, and humerus. Simply amazing stuff eh!

 

[BigSwad]

No worries JJ. I was amazed as well. Here are two pictures. One is of us loading him up and you can see the entrance hole, which was good size. On the other we are taking the picture from the opposite side and you cant see the bullet exit hole as it is there in the shoulder under the skin.

 

[daddy63]

Those kudu are beautiful...

Bigswad,

Who did you go on that safari with?

 

[jjhack]

Thanks for the photo's what is even more amazing is that the kudu has a rather small body as well, at least from the Photo angle! Kudu vary in size so much, I'm not sure where you hunted. I've had hunters shoot bulls that seemed enormous, but the horns looked much bigger then they were because the body was smaller. Gemsbok have this problem of measuring horn size by body mass more then any other animal. I don't mean for this to be a kudu body size thread, but certainly bigger kudu have more mass to stop bullets a bit better.
Here is another photo of a Kudu with a big body, the hunter in the photo is 6'6" tall as well.

This was a very big body bull!

Here is another big fella he is the largest guy I have ever hunted with, he is 6'6" but well over 300pounds as well. Just for size perspective

Another big body kudu and both of us are of normal size

 

[daddy63]

Those photos certainly make you want to get to Africa sooner than later...

 

[bpnclark]

Daddy63 – If you’re planning on getting a new rifle anyways I would defiantly step up to a 300 Ultra, 338, 375 H&H or 375 Ruger. Every thing you can kill with a 30-06 you can do the same with a 7.

BigSwad – I pick up my gun on the 13th!!! Have you tried to find brass for it lately? The only place I found that still has the 375 H&H brass was Hornady (directly). Everyone else is out.

 

[SDHNTR]

Swad, how big was your Kudu? He's a beauty!

How bout size on the two you posted JJ?

 

[jjhack]

The top one was 57 look how deep the curls are.

The middle one not such a good photo for the horns, just the body. It was about 50ish as I recall

The bottom was over 50, I think something like 52ish maybe. The hunter did not care so much about a number, he wanted a wide bull.

 

[BigSwad]

Well SD, here are the official measurements. It was measured by an official SCI scorer about a month ago: kudu Left Horn: 53 3/8 Base 9 3/8 Right Horn 50 7/8 Base 9 3/8 Total Score: 123

It wasn't a monster, but it sure was a great bull Kudu for me, being my first.

BPN, you will sure enjoy that new gun. As far as brass, I shot up a new box of Federal Premium and use that brass. I also procured some from the local gun range, who pick up that stuff after shooting. I thought Remington still carried it, but I guess not. It is not easy to find here in the States like other brass.

JJ, I hunted probably not too far from you, just outside of Hoedspruit in the Limpopo Lowveld. It was about an hour or so outside of Kruger. The Drakensbert mountains were a really nice backdrop. I go 6' 4" and in that pciture 310 pounds. And I was either squatting or on my knee's, I don't remember because I was still pretty excited about getting one. I should have sat down behind it.

Daddy63, I went with Bloubank Safaris. It was a great time and they have actually grown their operation since I was there. I also did a review on them here. If you read my journal, installment four was all about the hunt with them. If you know of anyone wanting to go on a great hunt in RSA, I would definitely recommend them. They are wanting to primarily be a bowhunting ranch, but for now they are open for both. They are a sponsor here at Jesses, their website is:

http://www.bbsafaris.com/