USO at it again??

[Pa Ridge Runner]

MonsterB: All the more reason for 1 set tag fee Res. or NRes. all pay the same. Sure put a cap on the amt of tags, I don't have a problem with that but it should be a tad more balanced AND if you say 10% then that's what it should be not say 10 and give out 6.
I'd be happy with a 70/30 split at the same price. Enough Res. would gripe about paying more that they would not buy it that alone would free up bonus( left over) tags for a seperate 50/50 draw
Monster both you and I know the mere fact that each state does not need to offer NR tags is NEVER going to happen. Do you honestly believe Co. Az, NM, MT, etc is going to loose NR $. Look at TX and SD the NR hunter is welcomed with open arms. when I go there to hunt deer and pheasants the whole town is geared up for NR and the welcome mat doesn't come in till the seasons are over! WHY? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[arizona jim]

This is a states rights issue. The game is managed by the state and should be. The states should have the right to make a cap & charge more if they want to. I live in AZ & have only had the chance to hunt Bulls in my own state twice in 20 years. Now my chances will be less.

USO only hurt the hunting community by being selfish. Listen to everyone fighting. We are supposed to stick together as hunters. The PETA types are loving this division amongst us. I accept the fact that I will have to pay whatever it takes to hunt in another state. If I don't have the money I don't go.

The future of our sport depends on new hunters to keep it going. If a kid can't get drawn they will develop other interests. My daughter has been drawn for the junior cow elk hunt for 4 times, but my nephew has never been drawn and he has become more interested in video games now. He finally got drawn for deer and his dad is starting to wonder if he wants to even go.

If our hunts are harder & harder to get drawn for, where are the future hunters, and pro gun / hunting voters going to come from? Do we want a country where only the priveleged and rich get to hunt ? In the end there will be more who are against hunting than for it and we will all lose.

I work all year long and pray for the chance to hunt. If I don't get drawn in my own state I have to pay to go out of state. We in AZ don't have Whitetails running us over in the woods like the back east hunters. We can't walk out in our back yards and shoot a deer or turkey ( except for the very few residents who live near public land and happen to get drawn for the hunt unit they live in). For most of us we have to drive for miles & take alot of time off work just to see a deer or elk. This year I did not get drawn for any big game in my state, but alot of non-residents did.

I think about my last bull elk hunt where I scouted for weeks, found a good camp site, arrived days early, and set up my tent in a good place. The night before the hunt the N.R.'s & Guides come rolling in, parked there rolling castles all around my camp site and start up the generators. In the morning with out any effort on the hunter's part, the guide points them in the right direction, picks out a big bull for them and says "shoot". You can see the frustration on the part of the resident hunters here.

As hunters if don't respect each other we will all lose.

 

[schmalts]

Originally posted by COUESNAM@Jul 29 2004, 02:46 PM
I do not have a problem w/ NR's hunting elk in AZ.  I do have a problem not getting drawn in 10 yrs and then finding out my chances are even more slim.  An AZ bull tag is so tough to draw for residents, why allow more non residents to even make it worse.  Hunting is becoming a rich mans sport.  I believe states should allot the majority of there tags to residence which is how it was being done w/ the 10% cap.  With that cap gone, the residence have a much more difficult chance of being drawn.

Sorry you didnt draw in 10 years but you are probably applying for rifle tags in top units. Not all AZ rez guys wait 10 years to get a tag, that sob story dont fly. I personally know 2 rez guys that drew 3 times in 10 years because they apply for archery and muzz tags. If you really want to draw a tag maybe you should consider a different unit. Also the nonres guys would have just as crappy odds of drawing or worst if they applied for the same unit and weapon choice. Your so sorry you dont draw a tag why not apply elsewhere for a backup? If you cant afford it well, join the club of nonres hunters.
How about crabbing to the F&G to change the drawing rules to allot more percentage of tags to highest point holders? Its just the way it is, supply and demand are far apart.

 

[schmalts]

Originally posted by COHunter@Jul 30 2004, 09:05 AM
PA Ridge Runner

I can't speak for other state's, BUT here in CO I already pay more for my tag than NR's do. Its called property tax, state income tax, local sales tax, tax on groceries, state gas tax, etc....

I know, I know......Federal Land blah blah blah we all pay for it

And if you want to get real technical, CO individuals and businesses put's more in the Federal Pot than it gets back. Why should I have to pay for the subsidizing of steel workers and coal miners "and" they're pension funds in Eastern states ? just because they're "Battleground State's" that need Federal handouts to vote for what ever party is in control at the time.

I'm sure most hunters in the western state's would love to see NR's protest the cost of tags by not coming.

(except wmidbrook, I think he'd be interesting to chat with at the campfire)

That is such bull. Your state , local, gas, county , income, taxes dont give JACK to game management and you know it. pretty much all states game management is funded by hunters fees alone. I challange anyone to show me any substantal money that goes to the F&G from other than hunting and tag sales. show me anything that shows your gas tax, sales, house, state tax goes to anything for elk managment. that is such a lame point to bring up, if I am wrong proove it.

 

[WapitiBob]

It's not a states right issue.

from another board:


"Note the case Hughes v Oklahoma (1979), where "the Court invalidated an Oklahoma law prohibiting the interstate transportation of minnows taken from Oklahoma waters. The Court rejected Oklahoma's law that states "own" wildlife and therefore wildlife is not "an article of commerce.""

The game does not belong to the state no matter what you wish to believe as long as the above mentioned precedent is maintained.

bob

 

[Pa Ridge Runner]

AZ Jim: if you'd have read my other posts on this thread you'd see I have NEVER BEEN drawn to hunt elk here in Pa but each year NR hunters come here to kill them. The 1st yr we had an elk hunt here many big name NR hunters applied Chuck Adams was just one of them, WHY? Cause our bulls are big and they wanted their names in some record book. How do you think we Res. felt seeing 400"+ 8x8 Pt bulls being checked in with NR tags on them? And here they get 25% of the tags. So don't cry to me about NR putting a dent into your hunting. Or the kids not getting a chance, cause my 3 kids haven't ever been drawn for an elk tag here.
I paid $11,750 to take my 2 oldest elk hunting one time till flights, tags, outfitters ,etc. were all paid. And I didn't even hunt. Why/How did I do this? I worked a second job one year for 6 months to get the $ together, just so my kids would know what it was like to hear a bull in the wild and be there when the guide cow called one in. Know how many elk we killed??? ZIP, Nada, Zero
I'm sure you could fly here to Pa an hunt the best deer territory we have for under $800 each including your tag. Hell if you want to hunt my farm I'll let you stay free and put you on a 150"+ buck myself.
don't forget that many of the NR that apply to AZ apply for archery, MZ, cow tags,etc. and not the big time rifle limited entry zones. If a res. does not wish to apply for the same areas why should I feel quilty cause he can't drive around with a pickup and a rifle rack full road hunting a bull?

 

[bzzboyz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The game does not belong to the state no matter what you wish to believe[/b]

You may be correct in that, but the means in which they are harvested is the right of the state.

 

[Coues]

" How about crabbing to the F&G to change the drawing rules to allot more percentage of tags to highest point holders? Its just the way it is, supply and demand are far apart."



They already do that. They have a seperate drawing for high bonus point holders. 10% of the tags from each hunt (where the tag total is over 10)


Your point about applying for archery & ML'er tags doesn't fly either. Those tags are HARDER to draw than the late season rifle tags. Plus, you and all NR's can hunt Kaibab deer EVERY year if you pick up your bow and go buy a tag. No restrictions what so ever. You can hunt basically the same deer herd that Utah gives 1 - 3 archery tags to NR's and charges in appx $600 for.

When your Elk tags cost over $1,000 next year (like Nevada), be sure and send USO a thank you note. Arizona will go from the cheapest elk tag in the west to the most expensive. It's almost a lock to happen before next years draw. Plus, there is serious talk of requiring a AZ hunters safety coarse to hunt. Not an "approved" coarse, the actual 2 week long AZ class.

The ruling does not just effect AZ either. Every state in the 9th ciruit will be forced to change their rules. You can bet they will find a way to protect the interest of their states residents.

 

[eddiehsf]

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Plus, there is serious talk of requiring a AZ hunters safety coarse to hunt. Not an "approved" coarse, the actual 2 week long AZ class.

[/b]

If that happens the state will loose alot of money from NR tags, but it wont effect me and 9 other guys that I know, we all took the class.

I hope all works out for you and ALL the other states that will be going through this (CO, NV, UT, CA, OR, WA...etc)

If fees go through the roof only the Rich will hunt and USO and the AZ, NV, CO, NM, guides they employe will still make the $$$, because the rich are who they cater too.

If the NR tags sales DROP who will pick up the slack the Resident hunter with guess what higher FEES to hunt their own state.

Good luck to all
eddiehsf

 

[schmalts]

The hunter safety thing will just bring on another lawsuit if they dont require residents to take the same course. Still discrimination in any book.

 

[Coues]

It is being suggested that ALL hunters be required to take the call.

 

[Outdoor Writer]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

If the NR tags sales DROP who will pick up the slack the Resident hunter with guess what higher FEES to hunt their own state.[/b]

Let's see, $1,000 vs. $371 works out to just under 3 times as much. Thus, it takes one-third of the NR tags now sold to put the same amount of money in the coffers. Sounds like a heck of a deal to me.

-TONY

 

[Pa Ridge Runner]

Couse just put the bottle down and walk away

you're starting to talk in circles!
You just don't get it do you? NR don't care if there is a reasonble limit to NR tags. Heck we don't even mind a slightly higher tag fee. BUT we do mind being awarded less than the percentage we should be getting and scalper's fees for the tags while a res. pay pennies on our dollar. I wonder if all the res. that are bellyacheing about us NR really are saying" we want ALL the tags for us. Even 1 NR is 1 too many" . Cause I'd sure respect them more if they had the backbone to just come out and say that

IMHO the states should have the right to say what they want on state owned land. But on Fed land it should be the Fed's that have the say so as they represent all American not those alone that live in any given state. All Americans should have the right to use the land they support. If the FEDs would step up and handle the tag issues on their land it would make everyone happy with the exception of those res. that have become spoiled. But I doubt that will ever happen ,hell they can't even run the economy. But they could mandate to the states what they want done on Fed lands

 

[Monsterbull]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

NR don't care if there is a reasonble limit to NR tags. Heck we don't even mind a slightly higher tag fee. BUT we do mind being awarded less than the percentage we should be getting and scalper's fees for the tags while a res. pay pennies on our dollar.[/b]

What is reasonable and who decides? The answers should come from the state. That NR pay exhorbitant fees is really just tough; the responsibility of any state should be to look after the interests of their own residents first. If that means having lower resident fees subsidized by higher NR fees, while at the same time striking a balance for out of state opportunities, then so be it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

IMHO the states should have the right to say what they want on state owned land. But on Fed land it should be the Fed's that have the say so as they represent all American not those alone that live in any given state. All Americans should have the right to use the land they support.[/b]

How many times do we have to go over this? It doesn't matter one wit about Fed vs State land; as an American you already have access to federal forest land, you can use the land now. The fed of course has a say in terms of the natural resources (timber, mining, water, etc.), but as it pertains to the game that reside on that land (we can quibble about "ownership") those matters are the responsibility of the state. It's called state game management and the Ninth Circus should keep their nose out of it.

 

[paulc]

Someone mentioned its about the money like it was some disgusting revelation. That is being naive.

If you want a top unit you are gonna pay. There are only so many oppurtunities for top quality units so either the odds are poor or its gonna cost you more.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

it looks like my chances of getting a chance to hunt Elk in my home state are pretty slim now.[/b]

Thats just not true. If you want a cow tag or a less of a high demand unit your odds are better. You are making a choice to apply for a high demand unit and as a result your odds are worse.

IMO, NR hunters should pay more even alot more but they should have the same odds as anyone else or at least alot better than 10% of the tags.

I have said it before. There are more hunters and less high quality hunting oppurtunities. There are still alot of quality hunting oppurtunities out there if you dont have to shoot a 350 b&c bull.

If you want the big animals you just gotta pay the extra money or get lots of points there aint no other way around it. Whining about it just wont get it done.

 

[eddiehsf]

So you want hunting to be a "RICH MANS SPORT"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Let's see, $1,000 vs. $371 works out to just under 3 times as much. Thus, it takes one-third of the NR tags now sold to put the same amount of money in the coffers. Sounds like a heck of a deal to me.  -TONY

[/b]

You think alot like USO and other guides. They do not care if the fees are high, because the clients they are booking have that kind of $$$$$. Thus they will guide more hunts and get more $$$$. Now that a tag may cost me a $1,000.00 you better dam well bet it wont go to waste, I will have to find a way to hire a guide due to the fact that I do not have the time to scout it like I should being a NR.

Tags fees go up, NEW hunter numbers go down, and one day its all gone. Then my kids and yours get screwed.

eddiehsf

 

[paulc]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Tags fees go up, NEW hunter numbers go down, and one day its all gone. Then my kids and yours get screwed. 


eddiehsf[/b]

Eddiehsf, there are still tons of hunting oppurtunities for less than prime units. Cow/Doe tags, and non prime Bull/Buck tags. Last time i checked, my kids got just as pumped about shooting a fork horn buck as lots of guys do shooting big mature animals.
This "sky is falling" crap is just that. Hunting will be around as long as fathers take their kids hunting. Whether its doves or moose it really dont matter. Down the road if their goals in hunting include big animals they are gonna have to do the homework and legwork and get some preference points or they are gonna have to pony up the big bucks.
Thats just how it is.

The units that have big animals are managed for big animals. Some of the best hunting oppurtinities there are is on the indian reservations. You know why? Because they manage their land for big animals so they can make more money.

Its called the free market system. Indian reservations are not as gridlocked with beaurocracy and they manage their land for only one thing. Optimal return. I have done cow elk hunts on indian land and you see quality animals all over. I am not ready to pay $8,000.00 for a bull elk tag on indian land but the guy that is paying it is paying for the quality management of the land.

USO is doing us all a favor if they can get states to conform their hunting programs and in my opinion, they will actually broaden interest in hunting across the country. More folks that are able to go on quality hunts the more interest there will be out there.

By the way, i have never used USO, instead, i do the leg work and homework and apply fo rout of state hunts relying on preference points to get quality hunts. Some times i draw sometimes i dont. this year i did not. I have paid for landowner tags that again took legwork and homework.

 

[eddiehsf]

Paulc

I agree with your post, it just makes me mad when you hear guys say great charge NR up the A$$. In the long run it will hurt, you watch.

I do apply for non prime units in some states and prime in others. I go hunting every year one place or another. I get a buck each year some small, some big.

I have also paid for land owners tags for a chance at a nice buck. I just hate the childish its mine attitude some peple have.

I apply for archery and muzzle loader tags not just rifle tags, and i know some areas will take for ever to draw. So when I hear some guy say "I have not drawn a tag in 10 years (for the best unit in the state), but NR draw every year", well guess what Residents draw every year also.

Its all

the way HUNTERS form other states get treated by the "Resident HUNTERS" When I have drawn an "X" zone in CA and see a NR plate, I don't think $hit a NR, I just say look like another hunter is working this area. It is all part of hunting.

I always thought we were in it TOGETHER for the good of the sport.

eddiehsf

 

[paulc]

Eddiehsf, i agree. Unfortunately its just how hunting is evolving like everything else out there worth doing.

For most of us quality hunts are not just something we can go out our back door and do. It requires alot of legwork/patience or big money.

 

[buck59]

United we stand devided we fall !!!!

I chalenge you all to do a search on USO and see what the majority of hunters are saying about the USO.

Also put your self in the shoes of residents and blue collar working stiffs and you will see where its becomimg a rich mans sport and in the end the every day hunter looses.

Before I could totaly make a decision about USO I had to way the PRO'S and CON'S and the CON'S far out way the PRO'S.

Tell me why just to name a few that people like Realtree, Zumbo, and Primos have dumped USO from what I have read.

I am very bitter about the USO and the way they operate.