What would you do?

[F350]

I got myself all fired up while responding to a PM from "Boaring" and certainly at no fault of his. Sorry Dwayne.

I'm hunting on a private ranch with 5 of my buddies and My Son. We paid to have all 800 acres to ourselves.

During the hunt, I observe fresh Human tracks, Hear Multiple shots fired on the same land and find freshly fired brass as well as freshly smoked cigarette butts.
There are 4 different calibers of brass and 3 brands of cigarettes which means at least 3 trespassers or possibly even poachers. I know my findings are valid and can even age the evidence within a reasonable time frame due to my partner and I both being Calif. P.O.S.T certified Investigative Trackers. This just really P_sses me off (Sorry Ladies). I tried not to let it bother me too much because one of my buddies did get a Hog and I don't like ruining someone elses trip. We collectively decided that if we caught these guys we would take their weapons and give them to the rancher as collateral until these @!*$&'ers (sorry ladies) returned with the money to pay for being on the land that we theoretically (sp?) leased.

I brought my findings to the Rancher's attention (Nice Lady) but she seemed to quickly change the subject. I don't know, Maybe it made her feel bad or embarassed, which truly would make me feel even worse.

So, Faced with similar circumstances...What would you do? What is the best Gentleman Hunter's approach to something like this?
I'd love to hear from all of you, even if I don't like what I'm hearing.

 

[Orso]

F350,

Is this the same ranch you have been posting about recently. 800acres, nice lady...??? Sounds like the same ranch.

First, I don't know what a POST tracker is. Do tell. As to the other hunters/poachers... I would be carefull approaching someone with firearms who maybe poaching on the property you are hunting. Trying to take someones firearms away from them could make for a very tense confrontation for anyone. Are you sure they were poaching? Could the owners possibly have double booked the property? You said the owner "changed" the subject quickly.

It seems to me if there were other people on the property who shouldn't have been there, it is really the owners responsibility to either have them vacate, or call the authorities and have them removed. You the paying customer, would be able to have some kind of reimbursement coming either in the way of a "free hunt" at some later date or a cash refund. Maybe that sounds a little tough, however, keep in mind you are only hunting on 800 acres, and with rifles which would certainly scare off game quicker than a bow. A couple of shots from a rifle in the most productive area of this ranch could easily ruin a weekend hunt.

Just my two cents.

 

[Speckmisser]

Unless you're wearing a legitimate badge and within legal jurisdiction when you approach these folks, you have no right whatsoever to take their weapons... especially not without even knowing if they were legally on the property. What's more, as Orso mentioned it's danged good way to get into a gun fight.

You go back to the landowner and make your complaint. If you can't locate the landowner, then you contact the law enforcement authorities. Both Sherriff and DFG can respond to a tresspassing call.

If it turns out that they were there with permission, then you should make your complaints to the landowner. I think you DO have the right to find out the facts, especially before you kick out to hunt the place again.

From there on, you're on your own as to what to do.

 

[MNHNTR]

What Speck said......

 

[BLASTMASTER]

I would not have confronted the other hunters in anything other than a careful and friendly manner. If you're a some sort of Peace Officer, be very careful about aproaching someone, with intent beyond your normal jurisdiction; it'll bite you every time. If you feel that your hunt was less than expected, you certainly have the right to talk to the provider, and ask for some compensation. Even if the hunters were there without permission, you may get a big discount for next time, out of good faith, and in order to keep you as a customer. If you can show evidence of a violation of the agreement, and they are not willing to satisfy your complaint, take 'em to court. But my bet is, that if you ask for a discount on an upcoming hunt, you'll probably get one.

 

[F350]

Guys,
While I'll agree it's not the safest scenario. I wouldn't let someone walk into my home and take $1300.00 from me either. 3 of my group members have backgrounds in Law Enforcement and are pretty well aware of the risks involved.

Nevertheless, these people are trespassers on land which has been leased by my group. Very much like renting a house or apartment.

As a private citizen, you have the right to arrest or detain a person who commits a crime in your prescence.

All that being said and don't get me wrong, I'm also Glad none of it came to that.
It also wouldn't be fair to the property owner to have to pay for the actions of people they weren't aware existed on their property.

The whole situation just stunk. But I do appreciate your input and I'm not going to let one bad experience keep me from hunting there.
Thanks Guys.

 

[Lurediver]

It is the property owners responsability to assure that there is no trespassing if it is being leased for the weekend! If there was trespassing I would first, not concern myself about who was trespassing and second get my money back. Someone got screwed and it wasn't the nice lady! Just because your friends have backgrounds in law enforcement, doesn't mean they have rights to take weapons from complete strangers or preforming citizen arrests. I would be careful trying to be a hero!!!

 

[Speckmisser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

While I'll agree it's not the safest scenario. I wouldn't let someone walk into my home and take $1300.00 from me either. 3 of my group members have backgrounds in Law Enforcement and are pretty well aware of the risks involved.[/b]

Brother,

It's not just unsafe... it's illegal and pretty dumb. ESPECIALLY in the case you described, since you don't even know for sure if they were tresspassing AND it wasn't your property.

This is not the same as confronting a tresspasser in your home. It's not even close. Your "law enforcement" buddies would know that. Or they should.

Paying an access fee is NOT leasing the property. You have no more ownership rights to that property than you would to public land. All you paid for is the right to be there for a limited amount of time.

Fortunately you didn't act on your misguided urge to play cops and robbers. If you had "confiscated" these folks' guns, especially at gunpoint (real or threatened), YOU would most likely be the ones facing legal action. Not them. You and your buddies really ought to research "citizen's arrest" laws.

This, of course, not even taking into account the possibility of a shoot-out with an unknown number of "bad guys". Bullets have no regrets, no morals, and no "delete" key.

I'm sorry, and not meaning to harp on you in particular , F350 because you're definitely not the only one, so please don't take it personally. But everytime I read about some joe-blow wanting to take the law into his own hands in situations like this, it really just drives me nuts.

Think about it, folks...

Just because you're carrying a gun:

A- doesn't make you arbiter or agent of law
B- doesn't make you invincible
C- doesn't make you Rambo
D- DOES imply a threat of violence to anyone you confront, whether you aim at them or not.

The moment you use a gun to threaten someone, except in actual self-defense, you are flirting with the law. Facing someone down with a gun in your hands can be interpreted as a threat. You don't have to point it at them or verbally threaten them.

If you do this on any property except your own, you are in violation of the law. Depending on the circumstances, you can be in violation even on your own property. If you actually shoot someone in such a situation, you've just stepped out onto a slippery slope that will very likely result in a loss of your rights to carry guns ever again (and this should be the least of your worries).

I've heard a lot of bravado on this list and around countless campfires. I've certainly got my hackles up over poachers and tresspassers enough times too.

It's always exciting to talk about taking up arms and going vigilante. But in most cases, the vigilantes end up on the wrong side of the law, and the result is that even more of the non-hunting/non-shooting public thinks hunters and gun owners are trigger-happy jerks. Another good man is in trouble with the law. And somebody may very well end up dead or crippled.

Not much of a trade-off for taking the right path and calling in the proper authorities.

 

[hicntry]

Speck...are you an attorney?

Hope so. Might need your help some day.

Any one remember what it was like back in the 60's and early 70's. You could have a disagreement and go out and pound on each other for a few minutes then shake hands and buy each other drinks. No one ever mentioned sueing or calling the law. People have sure evolved into something else. One thing I have noticed is that whatever people do these days that is wrong....it is "always" somebody elses fault.
No one even understand what it is to take responsibity for yourself. You fall down and break a leg, it is the propery owners fault. There was a day if you fell down it was actually your fault for not watching where you were going. Hard to believe isn't it. $1300.00 for a hunt I would not take lightly

but I would be darn sure the landowner wasn't aware of it and from what was said I am not to confident that she didn't.

 

[Coondog]

By her wanting to change the subject, I am wondering if maybe the owner knew there were other people there... Maybe she double-booked by mistake, or on purpose to ensure she would have some hunters out that weekend no matter what.. I know she is a nice lady, but stranger things have happened....

 

[Cahunter]

I have to agree confronting them would be the l;ast thing you should do. I would have talked to the land owner and informed her of the situation. Its her job to keep people off her proporty not yours. If she is nice then she couldhave let you guys come back another weekend to get your hogs, or just stay another day and hunt during the week.

 

[F350]

Wow!!!

Look what I started!
Your probably all correct about the ramifications and either way I wouldn't argue it.
As far as accessing the land, we're given a use permit and also advised to treat others as unauthorized when on the land.

Guess the part that really got to me was basically being ripped off.
Maybe I'll just talk to you guys from now on before getting myself pulled into decisions. Either way the bad stuff never happened.

Thanks again.

 

[Speckmisser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Either way the bad stuff never happened.[/b]

And that's what really matters!

 

[BLASTMASTER]

Originally posted by F350@Mar 5 2004, 01:39 PM
Guess the part that really got to me was basically being ripped off.

I still think that if you feel that way, you should approach them for a discout on a future hunt. It can't hurt, and it may make you feel better.

 

[MNHNTR]

 

[SacFireJT]

Dude,

As a citizen, you are well within you right to make an arrest for a crime, Felony or Misd. THAT IS COMMITED IN YOUR PRESENCE. However, only a Peace Officer that is acting under 830.1 CPC can make an arrest for a Misd. that is not commited in their presence. If you saw these subjects off the property...even if they said they were on the property after you made contact with them, you could not lawfully detain/arrest them--only a Peace Officer could.

The other problem you encounter is the fact that the land is not yours...you are only leasing it. For all you know, the landowner also gave these guys permission to "trespass" like they did you.

Finally, when you look at the risk vs. gain, the potential of getting shot at, or having to use you firearm for self defense, all for a trespass arrest, it is not worth it!

JT

 

[GruntHunter]

The scenereo that wasn't mentioned was the possibility that 'the other people' could have confronted you instead. They may have felt you were tresspassing instead of them.

If you have a written contract giving you exclusive rights to hunting the 800 acres for a certain period of time then you may (and only may) have recourse against the landowner. However, the other hunters may have had a similar 'contract'. I suspect that may have been the case. It's to bad you couldn't have had a friendly chat with them. You may have found that EVERYONE could have gone back and demanded their money back.

If indeed, they were there without her permission that could have still been out of her control, but maybe you could ask for some sort of consideration, either them or in the future.

I know on some leases in Ga. you may find out you only leased the property for Deer hunting and others could be there hunting small game or another species and you would be in trouble if you harvested anything else.

Bottom line: ALWAYS be sure you have EVERYTHING in writing and understand what you are reading.

If all of that was for a one-time hunt then you know what some of the questions are going to be next time.

Just my

 

[Freedivr2]

Great advice handed out here, and I hope it's being heard loud and clear. Friends with backgrounds in Law Enforcement are nice to have around, but most of the time they're out of their jurisdiction (as was the case last year when an L.A. sherriff I was hunting with witnessed someone shooting dileberately at my father; the kid got sprayed with shot from above and thought my dad had shot at him or some stupid thing like that) and can't do much more than the average citizen anyway.

I've said this a few times before, but it bears repeating. The MOST you should do when you are witness to violations of game laws is to get a good description of the perpetrators, if possible, their liscense plate number (if their vehicle is nearby), and if you're real slick (and this takes a little cool headedness), try to talk to them, shoot the bull so to speak, and try to get any info you can out of them (where they're from, their names, etc.). Then immediately report what you witnessed to the Dept. of Fish and game with the information you've obtained.

Poachers think differently than most folks, and have an entirely different set of ethics and moral code (read that as NONE). These criminals KNOW they're breaking the law. Highly skilled, trained and alert Fish and Game wardens have been killed in the field while attempting to make an arrest. Don't try to play hero, you easily could end up dead. Just get the info and call Cal-Tip immediately.

 

[fpscabs]

Freedver makes good sense. I remember back in 1982 in a DOW field in Northern Colorado. We had hunted a field that was posted "Colorado DOW" hunting area. Walked the area, hunted hard, but no birds. We met a guy on the way out. He told us that he was doing a survey for the DOW and college about the use and such. We gave him all sorts of info. A week later I have a sheriff serving me a paper at my dorm room that I violated the "No Trespassing and hunting private land" law and stuff.

I went back to the field(2+ drive), took photos, had the current DOW game book and all sort of info. Turns out the guy was the 'new' owner and revoked the rights granted the DOW, but since they did not post it clearly and it was included in the current game regulations, and there were "new" NO HUNTING SIGNS, which weren't there before {go figure the guy thought we had photos of the are from that day] guy put them up after we were there, all charges were dropped.

That guy pumped us up. He acted like our friend in hunting, told us of others in the field across the road having success. We gave addressed, let him check licenses, and my friend (

) talked about how good of hunters we were.
If we weren't prepared at court, we would have hung ourselves with all our admissions.

what's the old saying "catch more with honey than..."

 

[MNHNTR]

Originally posted by Freedivr2@Mar 6 2004, 10:51 PM
Friends with backgrounds in Law Enforcement are nice to have around, but most of the time they're out of their jurisdiction (as was the case last year when an L.A. sherriff I was hunting with witnessed someone shooting dileberately at my father; the kid got sprayed with shot from above and thought my dad had shot at him or some stupid thing like that) and can't do much more than the average citizen anyway.

Actually, if you have Peace Officer status in the State of Califorina, you can take action anywhere within the state, on and off duty. Additionally, there are agreements in place with most if not all Chiefs of police, and County Sheriffs to allow operations within their jurisdiction. Just because I leave LA County doesnt mean I'm not a copper anymore. Of course it's up to the individual officer's discretion if he wants to take any action or get involved (Considering no back up, no radio, no tools of the trade). Additionally, if the kid did shoot deliberately at your father, that was an Assault with a Deadly Weapon 245(a)(2) PC....FELONY......