What would you do?

[Common Sense]

Sierra,

How could I respond? I don't even know the language you and wello speak!

Gee Rifleman; being a moderator I just assumed you had one of those secret sierra de-coder ring that I have been requested. Saw one on e-bay, but it was out of my price range.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

pig guide,

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By all means. Call the fish and Game. Call the D.A. in your area. Tell them that " YOU have the RIGHT of retreival" on any man's land, just like you insist, for any reason what so ever, and find out what the penalties are.[/b]

I never said "for any reason what so ever." Try to keep to the statements that have been made.

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Not the RIGHT to enter any mans land, home, dwelling, car, etc.... for your possesions. i.e. dogs.[/b]

Again, keep to the statements made. I never said that I could enter anything other than the land for anything other than my dog.

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If the owner of said land gives you permission, then so be it.[/b]

From a practical point of view, do you really think that it is necessary to get written permission from a landowner just to get your dog that has entered their property? It can't be verbal, huh? It must be written? We are not talking about getting permission to hunt, just to get my dang dog off their property.

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I just pitty anyone, who reads the law as it is written, and then says that it doesn't pertain to them. AND, that is what you are saying. In YOUR own way.[/b]

Look at the DFG law you cited (2016) and respond to my points about the law. I am not in possession of a weapon (CADFG does not list a dog as a legal weapon for the taking of big game as they do for small game), I will not be discharging a firearm, and it is not my purpose to take or destroy an animal , but to recover my dog.

I am trying to limit my liability by removing my animal from the land of another individual, in much the same way that I would try to limit my liability if my horse, sheep, cow, etc were to enter their land. I am saying that it does not pertain to me in the situation that I am in. It is not a matter of feeling that it doesn't, it is a matter of the circumstances (lack of weapon and intent) not meeting the criteria of the law.

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SO????? Manson didn't need to pay attention to the MURDER laws because he dodn't FEEL that it was pertaining to his situation? Damn.[/b]

Quite a leap from one to the other, don't you think?


I guess I have just been lucky not to have been cited yet; none of the landowners or wardens that I have encountered during my "dog recovery efforts" have been as knowledgeable of the law as you.

 

[larrysogla]

It's called SierraSpeak or WelloISM........you'll get used to it.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

Naw, Common Sense, Jesse doesn't let the Sierra Explorer De-Coder Ring out of his sight...imagine the ramifications if it were lost!!!

He doesn't pay us enough to be able to afford our own. In fact, I'm not all that sure how many are known to exist...that kind of technology is not very easy to come by.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

To try and parse this discussion into one of the more interesting elements, the fundamental differences between choosing to rely on a dog or a weapon for the pursuit of hogs...


To Phil, and everyone else who thought the statements I made in distinguishing houndhunting from spot-and-stalking were arrogant (unfounded or not):

Do you take issue with my post that broke down the expenditure of time and money into the Development, Maintenance, and Proficiency/Use of both methods, and the subsequent sacrifice that houndhunters have to make as a result of that significant dedication of time and money?

If not, do you still think I am arrogant for originally making those statements?

 

[RIFLEMAN]

larrysogla,

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...but all the sniffing, barking, running certainly will alert hogs & deer to stay clear of the vicinity. Like Speck said, if a pack of hounds shows up in your vicinity, it will spook game out of the vicinity. Spooked game means the hunt is OVER.[/b]

No one else has really articulated their similar opinion, so I thought I would give you the chance to do so. Why would the game stay clear of the area if there are dogs sniffing, barking and running in the vicinity? How does game being merely "spooked" mean that the hunt is over? How do you logically come to these conclusions? What scientific, biological, or ecological arguments support your conclusions?

Please address the Fight or Flight response for the feral hog, how they respond to natural predation, and whether or not (and why) you think the hog would respond to the dog in the same manner as a natural predator.

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California should legislate that hounds be restricted only to private property.[/b]

You retracted this statement somewhat, so I'll withhold response.

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It's called SierraSpeak or WelloISM........you'll get used to it.[/b]

I sure hope so, but in the meantime....

 

[Speckmisser]

Rifleman,

The only arrogance is the perceived arrogance I get from your initial statements which did, indeed, suggest that since you dump more time and money into your chosen method, then you are more "dedicated" than non-houndsmen... even though you have absolutely no way of knowing how much time and money some non-houndsmen actually HAVE dumped into their own hunting. That's an arrogant position, regardless of whether my perception aligns with your intent.

That argument, by the way, is even less relevant since hunting with hounds is a CHOICE that YOU have made, while the rest of us have willingly chosen NOT to become houndsmen. It's like an archer who uses compound equipment claiming that he's more dedicated to archery because he spent more on his setup than a trad archer. You've chosen an expensive and time-consuming hobby, so the fact that you maintain it with the requisite costs has no value as a comparison against those of us who choose a different path.

Your love and passion for a thing are not measured by the money you spend or the time you have to give to it. Those are only measurements of the time and money you have available. In the same way, an urban hunter is in no way diminished by the fact that he only hunts selected weekends, and maybe the occasional "sick day" during the week. The time and money given in pursuit of a passion is even more precious by their scarcity.

You also implied that, since you are far more successful (take more hogs) than stillhunters, then your method is "better". That, too, is a position of arrogance... you're judging us all according to your values. Your method is better to you, but to ME, success due to the use of dogs is far less satisfying than success due to my own chosen method. It's personal values, man... there's no "better" or "worse" on a global scale.

Now I also read your subsequent post to say that you wrote those things to defend against charges that houndsmen are lazy or undedicated, and as I wrote already, that is not and never was my position. I don't have any qualms with houndsmen or their choice of hunting method... even if I have made the personal choice that I don't like to hunt that way. To ME, in MY PERSONAL OPINION, the dogs are doing all the hunting. It's not an implied insult to houndsmen's skill or dedication. It's only the way it makes ME feel when I participate. I don't care much for shooting bears over a bait can either, but that doesn't mean other hunters shouldn't enjoy it.

I think that's really at the root of why this is such a hot issue... particularly for you. Not to presume to analyze you or anything, but it seems that you and some other folks are too quick to draw insult where none is intended. At the beginning of this thread, there were almost no outright condemnations of hound hunting in this discussion. There was one voice speaking clearly against hounds on public land, and while he is entitled to his view, he really stood out alone.

I read a few posts that, to me, indicated that the writers feel the same as I do about hound hunting, and personally don't like to do it. I didn't hear ANY direct condemnations of anyone else's choice to hunt in your chosen manner. While I have not yet gone back to review the entire discussion, I don't think that more than one or two people even suggested that hound hunting "isn't really hunting".

I do understand why houndsmen are on the defensive. You've gotten a bad rap. And as a houndsman who claims to be aware of the issues, you should know that there are a lot of folks in your sport who seem hell-bent on giving it a black eye... running all over private property under the protection of Range Laws (the law that allows you to retrieve your dog from private property), abusing their animals, and making a public spectacle without regard for the sensibilities of the non-hunting public. You and I know it's not ALL houndsmen doing this, but one bad egg can stink up the whole coop.

It's not much different from the defensive stance hunters in general often take when they hear non-hunters speak negatively about our sport. Their opinions are driven by the negative examples. You don't read much about the guys who do it right... only the yoyos who screw it all up... and that's the picture of hunting that the general public gets.

We're still in our rights to correct misperceptions, as you and Bayed have attempted to do in this discussion. But remember too, that because one person doesn't share the same values, doesn't always mean they're criticizing someone else's.

Oh, and in reply to Bayedsolid...

I know of at least ONE person in this thread whose hog hunts have been "ruined" by houndsmen on public land. That would be ME. It's happened more than once, but most of the time it has been a case of seeing the dogboxes at the trailhead, and aborting my hunt before it started. There's a place I like to go that a couple of houndsmen seem to like as well.

I have also been deep in the field when houndsmen have shown up, and after waiting to see what they might push to me, I pulled out of the area to hunt elsewhere. I know the hogs will come back, but the area is pretty effectively killed for stillhunting for at least a day or two. And if the bedding areas have been disturbed, the hogs are likely to relocate altogether.

The one thing I have yet to experience is someone's hounds pushing a hog to me, and finding myself in the hypothetical position that I started with. Hasn't happened, and possibly never will. If it does, I honestly don't know how I'll respond to situation 1. Too much is situational.

Odds are even slimmer that I'll ever see situation 2, but as I've said repeatedly, if that hog is bayed, that would seem to me like stealing fish from another man's net. I'm not interested in that kind of action.

Which brings us full-circle (as far as I'm concerned) to where we came in.

The discussion was never about whether hound hunting is right or wrong, or if it belongs on public land. The question is of personal ethics... do you shoot, or don't you?

 

[larrysogla]

Thanks Speckmisser.

 

[bayedsolid]

Speckmisser-- First off I would like to say that I have always enjoyed reading you're posts and of all the thousands of opinions tossed out here on JHO, yours is always one that I have a lot of respect for. You just made the following statement but obviously things strayed a bit. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The discussion was never about whether hound hunting is right or wrong, or if it belongs on public land. The question is of personal ethics... do you shoot, or don't you?[/b]

I wish the conversation would have just stayed there as I think that was an interesting question to ask. I know I might have jumped on the defensive a bit but I would hope any hunter would do the same when any negative comments are uttered about this sport we all love. If nothing else, I can say that I come away from this with a little different outlook towards things when I drag the dogs through the woods....and I hope some rifle hunters might do the same.

I know this was not directed toward me but I felt like adding my

if you don't mind.
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The only arrogance is the perceived arrogance I get from your initial statements which did, indeed, suggest that since you dump more time and money into your chosen method, then you are more "dedicated" than non-houndsmen... even though you have absolutely no way of knowing how much time and money some non-houndsmen actually HAVE dumped into their own hunting. That's an arrogant position, regardless of whether my perception aligns with your intent.[/b]

In Rifleman's defense...(hope you don't mind either) I see the point he is trying to make and I fully agree. I also see how his point is easily misinterpreted by someone who does not run dogs. I do have have to disagree with you (speck) on your statement here though. I do think that the more time, money, and effort ect... you put into something, the more dedicated you are. A person can absolutly love ice skating but their schedule, family, money, ect... only allows them to skate a handful of times per year. Are you telling me that they are just as dedicated as the Olympic hopeful that forego their schedule, family, money ect... and devotes their whole life to train 7 days a week ice skating?
Most hound hunters put running their dogs first over all other forms of recreation and much more in their lives. In order to have a good pack of successful dogs that is what a person has to do. Obviously, one cannot say that all houndsman are more dedicated than all rifle hunters, but by far, most of the time this is true. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Your love and passion for a thing are not measured by the money you spend or the time you have to give to it. Those are only measurements of the time and money you have available.[/b]

Thats not true either or you wouldn't see everyone's life change when they have kids. People devote time and money that they used to spend on themselves, on their kids. It happens every day. You devote your time and money to what matters most in your life and to what makes you most happy. I love fishing, but I don't fish nearly as much as I could because I am more dedicated to my dogs and hog hunting. There have been numerous posts on the topic of how dogs could ruin a rifle hunters hunt. They drove for hours on end, spent lots of money to get there, took time off work, ect... How often do they make this sacrifice to hunt? A few times a year maybe? Well I make that sacrafice 2-3 times a week, and many times things go wrong and my hunt is blown. You should see my gas bills.

How could you compare the dedication when I am willing to do this 100 times in a year compared to a handful of times?

I realize that a hunters success is not always measured on the amount of game taken but rather the experience of the hunt. That I fully agree with.

The last comment I would like to make is on this...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I don't have any qualms with houndsmen or their choice of hunting method... even if I have made the personal choice that I don't like to hunt that way. To ME, in MY PERSONAL OPINION, the dogs are doing all the hunting. It's not an implied insult to houndsmen's skill or dedication. It's only the way it makes ME feel when I participate. I don't care much for shooting bears over a bait can either, but that doesn't mean other hunters shouldn't enjoy it.[/b]

I have said before that if I wasn't the owner of the dogs, I would probably feel the same way, but it is much different when the dogs are yours. Let me put it this way. You go out hunting with another guy and follow behind him the whole time. He finds a hog, puts his rifle in a stationary vice of some sort and all you do is stand next to the rifle and pull the trigger when he says to do so....you killed a hog. Not very rewarding because you didn't really do any of the work. Now if you go out and find the hog yourself and shoot it, things are completely different.
You don't just take a puppy, let it grow up, and turn it out in the woods and watch all the hogs get caught. It is not easy and not everyone can do it...just like not everyone can be a successful rifle hunter. It is a great accomplishment to raise pups and watch them turn into hog dogs from a ton of hard work and dedication. Not everyone that decides to have a go at it comes out in the end with successful dogs.
You say in your opinion the dogs are doing all the hunting, but that is really oversimplifying things. It's like saying that the rifle or bow is what is doing all the killing on one of your hunts. Technically, the rifle did kill the hog, but it certainly didn't pack itself into Laguna Mtn., find a hog, and touch off a round by itself.
No disrespect to you, but how many hogs do you think my main strike dog would have caught to this date if you would have taken him as a pup? Would you have devoted what it takes to make him into what he is today? If you did, I bet you would have a great sense of accomplishment when he found and bayed a hog for you.
Anyway, Keep up the good work Speck.....I'm still your #1 fan.

 

[SierraExplorer]

My bragging mouth opened the floodgates..

Peace be with us all JHO'ers.

 

[Speckmisser]

Bayed,

Thanks for the kind words, and for some good points. I still stand by my position that simply being able to dump time and money into something doesn't necessarily mean you're more dedicated... just like not being able to drop the time and money doesn't mean you're a dilletante. It's about the choices we make.

I consider myself pretty danged dedicated to hunting. I spend as much time and money (more, actually) as I can to do it as much as I can. But, the way I choose to hunt simply doesn't cost as much as raising a good batch of dogs. Plus, as dedicated as I am to hunting, I'm even MORE dedicated to making sure my family has a good life... and living in the Bay Area that means putting in the hours at a pretty high-paying job. That's a commitment I make because without it, I wouldn't have the other things I love... including hunting.

If you or Josh have truly dedicated your life, at the expense and sacrifice of everything else (as per your skater comparison), then I'll freely admit you're more dedicated than most. But that's hardly the reality for most hunters... houndsmen or otherwise (and I don't know either of you well enough to say that you're one or the other). It takes a lot of time and money to raise and train a good bunch of dogs. If you want to be good at what you do, then you do what it takes. That was your choice.

As to the whole perception of which method is better... you make my point as well as I do. I believe that, to you and Josh and other houndsmen, your way is better. That's why you commit the time and money to do it. And to those of us who choose NOT to hunt that way our way is better...hence the choice.

It's just like the point about the dogs doing all the hunting. I realize that houndsmen don't see it that way. If you did, you probably wouldn't do it. As I said, though, that's how it felt to me when I did it. That's why I choose not to hunt that way any more. It's no reflection on houndsmen... and that's what I've been trying to say.

It's all about DIFFERENT. Not about BETTER.

On that other point, by the way... I'm sorry these discussions always degenerate as they do, but it's generally good discussion. We're all grown-ups here (most of us), and our skins should be thick enough to shrug off the occasional thorn. As I've said before, you might not be seeing it, but people's minds get changed during these kinds of debates. People start to think differently.

Don't think that yours and Rifleman's points aren't being taken and considered... no matter what you read here. Sometimes people need to be reminded that their perspectives aren't the only ones.

Or maybe I'm just a hippie optimist. It's hard to tell sometimes... but I'm happy in my little world.

 

[larrysogla]

If I offended anyone...........my fault entirely. Now let me stay out of this thread.

 

[Common Sense]

I don't like hounds, and if the truth be known, most houndsmen I've known don't seem overly friendly family-men. However, the houndsmen are dedicated to their sport; often taking better care of their dogs than their families. I know of no group (DU, PETA, Sierra Club) that is more dedicated than houndsmen. If the rest of us "sport hunters" were as dedicated as houndsmen, there would be little game left.

I don't like hounds on public land, BUT IT IS PUBLIC LAND. And when you get right down to it; a lot of us casual hunters are just a little bit jealous and envious of the lifestyle of a houndsman.

 

[bayedsolid]

larrysogla--

No hard feelings okay.
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As to the whole perception of which method is better... you make my point as well as I do. I believe that, to you and Josh and other houndsmen, your way is better. That's why you commit the time and money to do it. And to those of us who choose NOT to hunt that way our way is better...hence the choice.[/b]

You know Spec...I never really thought of my way as better, because it is so different. The way I view deer hunting and the way I view hog hunting is like night and day. Knowing that, I then know that the way I view hog hunting and most folks view hog hunting is also like night and day, where as I figure most hunters probably feel deer hunting and hog hunting are pretty similar. When it comes to hunting, more isn't necessarily better. I honestly feel that the best way is the way that a certain person enjoys it the most, and in the end, that's really all that matters.

 

[Speckmisser]

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I honestly feel that the best way is the way that a certain person enjoys it the most, and in the end, that's really all that matters.[/b]

Can I get an AMEN?

Yea verily!

And with that... time to think up a new thread.

 

[pig guide]

Oh well....I lied.

There is a difference between dedicated and fanatical. All of my experience with dog runners, houndsmen or whatever, have been bad.
On my 200 acres in Missouri, we were always repairing our fences from the Dorks ( bad dog runners ) who would cut our wire instead of getting their big asses over it.
So, not only were they cutting the wire, they were trespsssing as we told everyone and posted all property, no hunting. They didn't care and so now I don't.
I have only met " screw you " houndsmen. And they were the ones who used your land for whatever reason....hunting, dog retreival, etc......
Behavior knows no boundaries. It is in every state, every field.
And success at the end of a dog, cornering a pig, as opposed to an actual person using human skills? It is all based on opinion. One doesn't make the other bad.
It is just how we choose to hunt. BUT! Comparing multiple dog catches to human kills is like comparing day to night.
They are so diametrically opposed to each other.

 

[MikenSoCo]

You guys are going soft on us!

 

[BLASTMASTER]

I don't want hunting dogs in the big game areas I hunt. I don't like it, just the same as I don't like some LA hunter tromping down a trail I'm watching, knockin' over trees and smoking cigarettes. They have the right, though. The right to ruin my day. Maybe there should be hunting dog areas, like they have archery or shotgun only areas?

 

[bayedsolid]

Please!!!!....For the love of God....Somebody lock this damn thread.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

pig guide,
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BUT! Comparing multiple dog catches to human kills is like comparing day to night.[/b]

How so?


BLASTMASTER,
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

They have the right, though. The right to ruin my day.[/b]

Instead of using the same old rhetoric I've heard from a great many people, how about articulating how your day will be ruined. How will the use of coursing dogs in the area you are hunting in ruin your day or your chances of getting a hog?

For once, I would like someone to answer this question I've posed to everyone I noted make the groundless statement above. Call me greedy, but I would also like the answer to be based on something more substantial than, "I went hoghunting on public land. There were hounds on the same land. I didn't see or shoot a hog so...the hounds ruined my hunt." Let's apply some science to the scenario, shall we?


bayedsolid,
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Please!!!!....For the love of God....Somebody lock this damn thread.[/b]

Naw, we don't want that to happen. Take a deep breath, take your dogs out and catch a hog or two, then come back and respond...