The best pointing breed

[Qbn Hunter]

Let the games begin

I would have to go with the GSP because I consider it an all around dog. It points and its also a natural retriever.

 

[Mt Goat]

I voted GSP,

IMO their the best all around breed, their athletic, flashy, and have good noses, I just like the way they look running around in the field, and to top it off their GREAT family dogs too.

 

[WildBird]

GSP for me. All around great hunting dogs.

 

[Huntndogs]

Had to vote GWP only because she is so much smarter than my GSP. Luck of the draw, I love them both...

 

[DKScott]

I voted for the English Pointer best POINTER. However, they're specialists and like Labs, they're awesome within their limitations. The best all-around hunting dogs are hands down, the German Versatile breeds: German Shorthair Pointer, German Wirehaired Pointer and Pudlepointer.

I have a strong preference for the "real" German versions, Deutsche Kurzhaar (GSP) and Deutsche Drathaar (GWP). Pudlepointers in this country have remained under the strict control of their breed club and so far as I know are the same on both sides of the Atlantic.

Personally, I own a Kurzhaar (aka a DK).

Scott

 

[Handcannon]

The "BEST POINTING BREED" hands down winner=POINTER.


No others will compare.

Maybe, I am confused, maybe this poll actually means "Best all around hunting breed"

Not an opinion, just a fact.

TRIVIA QUESTION: What year was the last National Championship held where there were other breeds other than Pointers or Setters qualified to compete.

my 2 cents worth

Handcannon

 

[Soccer Dad]

I voted for the GSP because it is the best hunting dog that points...hence "best pointing breed" vs. "best flushing breed." The GSP is a natural retriever in water and on land and it POINTS! What more could a man (or woman) ask for?

My GSP has saved me some lost game on some ill advised shots that I have downed the bird.

I agree as a specialist a pointer is good at "pointing!" But I wouldn't consider it the best dog in the Pointing dog breeds because of its limitations.

 

[Mt Goat]

Handcannon

If your asking whats the best pointing All Age breed for field trials, I would agree with you on the Pointer.

Put those same dogs in a 20-30 acre field and the Pointer will run in and out of it. Example this year a friend of mine was hunting fields in El Centro and just happened to get to several fields as some of his Trial Pointer friends finished, the pointers covered the edges and were in and out of a field in less than 5 min, most EP guys dont even enter a field unless there dog goes on point, My friend would push the same field with his shorthair making a couple of passes covering the field in 30-40 min and found birds in every field they left birdless, NOT AN OPINION JUST A FACT,

Who had the better dog ??? I say the dog that found the birds pointed them and then retrieved them, the GSP. These same pointer guys are saying it a bad year for Pheasant, My friend has been out every weekend and every time hes been out hes got into several birds. I've only been out once but we saw 7 Rooster and 7 hens.

 

[red dog]

I HAVE TRAINED SEVERAL DOGS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS AND HAVE FOUND THE HUNGARIAN POINTER ( VIZSLA ) TO BE THE EASIEST AND MOST WILLING DOG TO TRAIN.
SMART, BOLD, AND A NATURAL RETRIEVER.

 

[Qbn Hunter]

WOW! Red dog interesting. I have never trained a Viszla or ever hunted with one but I have heard that they are hard to train. I guess every dog even ones from the same breed are different.

 

[red dog]

well..Qbn hunter. I must admitt my fist vizsla didnt work out. It was my first dog that I was going to train on my own. I made all the classic mistakes. it was kind of a snow ball effect. so I think all her faults where man made.

 

[DKScott]

red dog, sounds like you found a good line or got lucky with your subsequent Vislas.

I looked hard at Vislas and I'm no expert, but my impressions are that they can be very good, but personally, I saw mostly high strung neurotics. I didn't see any steller performers in the local tests. Their owners rave about their sweet temperment and refer to them as velcro dogs because they have an inordinate need for human companionship. The downside is they get destructive when left alone, apparently even with companion dogs. I know one guy who had his put down because it became such a nut (I think he was wrong, but that's another story). They have a reputation for being very soft and shut down if pressed too hard. I decided it was too much of a crap shoot and that I was more likely to end up with a nut.

Maybe its my location. Maybe they're all pet quality in so cal - this isn't exactly a bird dog mecca. I had to go to Iowa for my DK. Just my thoughts. Beautiful dogs though.

Scott

 

[Tominator]

Where's the Llewellin????????
Tominator

 

[red dog]

Scott, I think there is some truth to what you say but find the facts a little off. you say they " shut down if pressed too hard". I have never experienced that but, have seen owners ruin dogs by beeing too hevy handed. this is not the breed for that type of training.
they do become very attached to thier owners and have found that thier willing to please to be a useful tool in traing.

these are just my personal experiences with the five vizslas I have had the honor of working with.

 

[DKScott]

red dog,

I defer to your experience, but how would you go about selecting a dog likely to have strong, even temperament? As I said, with this breed, it seems much easier to make a poor choice than a good one, kinda like a weimareiner. Uh oh, that'll light up this thread

Scott

 

[Qbn Hunter]

Tominator,

I would include the Llewellin witt the English Setter. I know the Llewellin lovers aren't going to like what I just wrote.

 

[Mt Goat]

DKscott

What I've learned with different people and the breeds they chose, is that everyone wants something alittle different in a dog, and all the breeds have something alittle different to offer. Some people want a very close working dog, some want an All Age dog, some very bold, some soft. If you select the right breeding you should be able to close your eyes and pick a pup and get a decent dog. Can a soft dog be trained ??? can a hard headed dog be trained ??? of course. Can both dogs be good in the field ??? of course. Might these types of dogs be harder and take long to train ??? probabley Are some of these dogs messed up ??? yep. Are good dogs of all breeds messed up ??? yep, why ??? IMO, because most people push to hard to fast, they read a book or watch a video that says all dogs should be at a certain spot by a certain age instead of going slow and moving forward as the dogs ready.

 

[DKScott]

Mt Goat,

I agree, but you have to admit that some breeds in this country are overrepresented by dogs that have been poorly bred, either because of show considerations or because they were featured in a movie, etc. and the demand is for the look rather than the ability. So there are bad dogs from good breeds. Some refer to this as the AKC effect. You know the short list - Irish Setters, Golden Retrievers, Weimareiners to a large extent (including one I owned) and more recently, quite a few Labs.

My comments reflect my perception of the difficulty in reliably selecting a well bred hunting dog with a solid temperament from these breeds. I have no doubt its possible, its just that I see so many examples to the contrary. When I first began to consider GSPs for my next dog, I was really disappointed at what I saw at several local tests. It was hard to discern a standard. They were too big, too small, shy, aggressive. Some were just plain congenitally ill or mal formed. There are some awesome American GSPs, but they all seem to be big running field trial dogs because that's where reputations and awards are made in this country. I don't hunt for an hour on horseback for planted birds. I do walk all day for wild birds and I do hunt waterfowl.

That's the main reason that I became attracted to the German breeding/testing system, where a dog has to "earn" the right to breed by passing natural ability, hunt and conformation tests. The pedigree (Ahnentafel) discloses everything. I also like the fact that dogs are tested to a specified breed standard instead of competing in field trials that emphasize only a few abilities and create an incentive to breed away from the standard. It just seems like a more rational way to reliably produce good, sound hunting dogs. Just my opinion.

Scott

 

[Mt Goat]

DKScott

I do agree that some people overrepresent a breeding or breed. But some people can take the same dog that someone else would wash out and help develope him/her into a good dog. Alot of hunting breeds have been ruined by none hunting breeders, that doesnt mean there's not strong hunting lines in the different breed out there, someone just has to look, and in some cases look harder.

You said:
When I first began to consider GSPs for my next dog, I was really disappointed at what I saw at several local tests. It was hard to discern a standard. They were too big, too small, shy, aggressive. Some were just plain congenitally ill or mal formed. There are some awesome American GSPs, but they all seem to be big running field trial dogs because that's where reputations and awards are made in this country. I don't hunt for an hour on horseback for planted birds. I do walk all day for wild birds and I do hunt waterfowl

I'll agree that there are alot of different sizes in the GSP breed, but I think the breed as a whole meets the standards some might be on the top end some on the bottom, but again people like different things in there dogs. How many DK's have you seen compaired to the American dogs ??? and I dont mean in pictures, Are you so sure that the DK's dont have big and smaller dog too ???

I dont hunt for an hour off horse back either, but those hour dogs have been trained and conditioned for that, those same dogs can and will hunt all day if allowed to, My dogs are made up from nothing but field trial lines and DO hunt ALL day with energy to do it again the next day.

You said:
That's the main reason that I became attracted to the German breeding/testing system, where a dog has to "earn" the right to breed by passing natural ability, hunt and conformation tests. The pedigree (Ahnentafel) discloses everything. I also like the fact that dogs are tested to a specified breed standard instead of competing in field trials that emphasize only a few abilities and create an incentive to breed away from the standard. It just seems like a more rational way to reliably produce good, sound hunting dogs. Just my opinion

IMO if a dog has a SH, MH, AFC, FC, they have natural ability, and trainability. The conformation test the DK's use is Pass or Fail, kind of like the International CH, not hard to get if a dog is of type and is with in the standard. I disagree that field trails create an incentive to breed away from the standard. I've seen LOTS of trial dogs that could finish there CH if they were shown, but not everyone is into that.

Like you this is just my opinion.

Larry

 

[DKScott]

Mt Goat,

I agree, there are very good GSPs out there - NoBelle, Shooting Star and Hillhaven, for example. But I saw an awful lot of ones that didn't measure up. I'm a nuts and bolts guy. I want a good dog and I'm trying to figure out how to maximize the probablilty that the dog I select will be a good one and not a nut or unhealthy, etc. And those dogs are out there, some from big name kennels. The rescue down in Bonsall had about 60 GSPs when I was looking. Pretty shocking when you consider there are relatively few in So Cal.

I have seen a fair number of DKs and my hunting buddy has one too (as well as an EP). They do vary in size, but I suspect not as much. The size wasn't really my complaint. Temperament, ability, controllability and range were what put me off.

The conformation test or Zuchtschau is not pass fail. There are 5 grades. I'll spare you the German jargon and the arcane stuff and the dog must score at least the middle level ("G" for good) to qualify as a breeder and beyond that is "SG" signifying very good and then "V" for excellent. I forget the lower two ratings since, they drop out of the gene pool. I think the lowest is "U" and corresponds to unacceptable. In addition, a Prize 1, Prize 2 and Prize 3 are awarded, so there will be a V1 dog - best in show there will be an SG2 dog, second best in class and so on.

The natural ability test (Derby) and hunt test (Solms) are scored Prize 1 through 3, with all dogs evaluated against the same fixed standard. After that, you can keep on testing through the VGP (same scoring and prize system) in this country. Over my level so far, but if you look at what they are required to do, its intense. I gather that the VGP is generally compared to the VC designation, though I believe the dogs are required to do more in the VGP. After that you need to go to Germany for the IKP (Prize 1-3 scoring) and the coveted KS title (pass/fail scoring). Not many American bred IKP or KS, but some of the wealthier or more committed guys are now doing it. The system is similar for Drathaars, etc.

The reality is that even though a dog can qualify for breeding with low but acceptable scores, most breeders won't use the minimally qualified dogs. For example, my dog's parents were V1, VGP1 and V2, VGP1. Both were the first DKs for their owners and the first attempt to train to that level. I would say that is a pretty good indication of trainability.

I understand that a lot of traditional American breeders get prickley about German dogs, except when used as an add-in to their American lines (and face it, you guys like to point to a KS or two in the pedigree), but the German system is very orderly and rational and really minimizes the BS and backyard genetics experiments. Even down to the naming system - its very easy to see how well a dog's littermates and their progeny have done, and determine if it's talent or training. It beats the hell out of "Hey, I got a dog, you got a dog - let's breed 'em." I was very impressed with conciensciousness that the Germans put into deciding which dogs and lines to breed together. The German test model is also the basis for NAVHDA, though I don't think NAVHDA says anything about breeding .

Like I said, this is my first DK and I am very very pleased with him. He's gorgeous and smart and has a rock solid temperament and a very pleasant happy personality (and a serious chick-magnet

) . Loves the water and has a great nose. This describes many American GSPs as well, but my point is that I was fairly certain of what I was getting even before he was even conceived (most DKs are sold before they are born or concieved), and that is really all I was after.

Scott