The best pointing breed

[Huntndogs]

I missed the post about Visla's, My first dog was a V and he was absolutely insane. He trapped my wife in the kitchen barring his teeth. he was very possessive of everything and snapped at anyone. Was very scary. I would never have another, although I have seen some very nice mannered V's lately. This dogs parents were very well behaved and both huntd over. Guess I picked the bad one. Just my opinion / experience with the breed.

He is now pushing up daisy's after he nipped my boss. RIP Gunner!

 

[Qbn Hunter]

DK,

What you are trying to say is that major difference between "American" GSP's and DK's is temperament?

 

[red dog]

I GIVE UP............ I better go check on the wife I think she is in the kitchen and I hear some growling.

 

[DKScott]

Qbn,

I don't think there is supposed to be a difference per se, and I think well bred American and German dogs are probably very similar and there is a range of acceptable temperaments. The only point I am trying to make is that under the German system, these things are specifically evaluated and quantified and dogs that come up short, don't get bred. I don't mean to frame German dogs as a better or worse thing, just that you have reasonable shot of knowing what you'll get before your committed to the deal or bonded with the dog. Not a perfect system, but a very good one IMO.

For instance, sharpness, a quality of aggressiveness towards either people (man sharp) or animals occurs in some lines and not in others. On my dogs perdigree are notations (MS or HN) for most of his ancestors referring to whether or not the dogs were certified for toughness. One way to get the notation is for the dog to kill some critter that can put up a reasonable fight (such as a coyote), in the presence of two or more licensed hunters. I didn't want a dog that had a tendency toward sharpness, so I didn't bother to learn beyond seeing if it was prominent in the lines or not. In my dog's pedigree it isn't prominant and he is a big wiggly friend to all. He doesn't even bark when strangers come to the door. Other lines are different. The point is, you have an indicator up front.

Temperament is evaluated in every test, up through the KS and it is part of their score. I think that because the way that Germans hunt, which is a very organized and social affair, the successful dogs need to be cooperative and well behaved. Germans are big on control. I also think that because the DKs are bred to retain their full versatility, including tracking, water work, family pet/guardian and guarding the henhouse (presumably without eating the chickens), they need to be steady. One breeder/DVM described it to me as a sort of controlled schizophrenia. They have a range of tasks they may be called on to perform, each requiring a different behavior. They need to be able to change gears. In Europe they are used for upland birds, waterfowl and furred game - from rabbits to deer and boar and know the difference. I don't really need to track big game, but how about running pheasants and blind searches in water for ducks? DKs are generally closer working dogs, they probably get out to about 200 yards, but adjust to the cover and are easily brought in, as a rule. They are foot hunter's dogs.

Rather than me blathering on about a system I'm still relatively new to, here are a few links that may be interesting to you. Couldn't find the link to the Pudlepointer Club, but it's around. The gal the runs High Desert Hunt Club (Lisa) is into them.

North American Deutsch Kurzhaar Club - NADKC explains the system and shows a sample Ahnentafel (pedigree)

NADKC Mid-South Chapter (good info, links)

Deutsch Drathaar (GWP)

NAVHDA Formed by Bodo Winterhelt, modeled on the German test system.

The 3 Breed Standards

This is from the AKC breed standard (not much difference in this respect)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Temperament
The Shorthair is friendly, intelligent, and willing to please. The first impression is that of a keen enthusiasm for work without indication of nervous or flightly character.[/b]

This is from the German breed standard

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

BEHAVIOUR AND CHARACTER :
Firm, balanced, reliable, restrained temperament, neither nervous nor shy or aggressive.[/b]

 

[Qbn Hunter]

DK,


Are Dk's as hyper as there American cousins? Cause my cousin's GSP does not stop all day. I've seen other GSP's and they are pretty hyper as well. I am a Lab man. Maybe that's my problem.

 

[DKScott]

Qbn,

Mine is pretty mellow - people remark about it. One guy didn't believe he was a GSP. He is an energetic dog and I can get him jacked up, but I can also calm him right back down. Definitely not hyper, he sleeps a good bit of the day, but playtime comes every day about 5:00 pm and he'll bounce around the house with a toy or training bumper and bug me to play with him for awhile. That's his normal time to go for a run, so I guess I programmed him. He hates to be alone though. I'll get him a buddy as soon as he's finished training.

I like lab personalities too (who doesn't?), but they can be hyper as well.

 

[Mt Goat]

DK

Again just my opinion


You said:
The rescue down in Bonsall had about 60 GSPs when I was looking. Pretty shocking when you consider there are relatively few in So Cal.

If the DK dogs were as popular as the GSP's there would be more DK's in the rescue's too. Dogs are in rescues because people want them as puppys today, and dont tomorrow when they become dogs.





You said:
The size wasn't really my complaint. Temperament, ability, controllability and range were what put me off.

Well first off DK's as a whole are alot more agressive than there brother the GSP. What do you mean by ability ??? My field trial bred GSP's have good noses, point, back, and retrieve naturally. Is that not ability ???Controllability ??? any dog that is not trained to be under control will just hunt the way he wants to, control/handling is taught. Range ??? Most field trial dog are allowed and conditioned to run big. Every dog has a natural range they will hunt, some close, some big. If his natural range is close thats what you get, if his range is bigger you can train the dog to hunt any range, if you want a 10 yard hunting dog you can have it and so on.

example: One of my dogs is out of one of the best GSP bitches running on the national field trial level today she runs a BIG Shooting dog range. She has had only 5 puppys so far, two of those are going to be field trialed, one of those is my dog who has been ALLOWED to run big, he has a Shooting dog range 500-800 yards, so far, the other is a female who runs All Age 1000+ yards who has been ALLOWED to run big, the other three are in hunting homes two of these dogs belong to friends, one a female has a range of about 100-200 yards, the other a range of about 50-100 yards all because thats the range there owners want. Also my other dogs, hunt and are under control with a range between 25-300 yard depending on cover because thats the hunting range I like.






you said:
I would say that is a pretty good indication of trainability (regarding the KS system)

Yes I would too, I would also say an MH, AFC, FC is a sign or trainability too, these dogs all have to be steady until sent to retrieve, and back, and handle. You dont think that shows trainability too ???





You said:
I understand that a lot of traditional American breeders get prickley about German dogs, except when used as an add-in to their American lines (and face it, you guys like to point to a KS or two in the pedigree),

LOL, thats funny, LOL, I dont feel one way or the other about the German Lines, there's a place for them if people want that type of dog. I personally dont have any KS in the pedigrees of any of my dogs, and honestly I would rather see names like Greif, Roxey Roller, Rockin Rollin Billy, Dixeylands Rusty.





you said:
Like I said, this is my first DK and I am very very pleased with him. He's gorgeous and smart and has a rock solid temperament and a very pleasant happy personality (and a serious chick-magnet ) . Loves the water and has a great nose. This describes many American GSPs as well, but my point is that I was fairly certain of what I was getting even before he was even conceived (most DKs are sold before they are born or concieved), and that is really all I was after.


How old is your dog ??? and how many dogs have you had ???

Yes I would say that describes many dogs, I think you can look at the parents and the dogs in the pedigree of any breed an know more or less what your going to get. If you buy a good breeding from a well known breeder from most breeds they will be sold before their born.

I'll say again, to each his own, everyone likes something alittle different and theres good dogs in every breed. You just have to pick the right breeding.


Larry

 

[DKScott]

Mt Goat,

This is the sort of breed bragging circle jerk I was trying to avoid. I appreciate that you like your dogs and they are undoubtedly good dogs and you are invested in the way things are traditionally done here. Fine. I stipulate to the point.

My point is not that one is better than the other. I am merely saying the system provides a measure of assurance in advance that I would get a dog that was healthy, sane and had the ability and versatility that I need for the way I hunt. You say that your field trial dogs have all those abilities but are just trained differentlyso they don't show it. Lets say that's true - I certainly don't know that it's not, but as the buyer, that is a speculative assumption on my part since I have seen no evidence. It could be just "yeah, my dogs do it all" sales hype.

Certainly MH and VC tiltles are evidence, but the fact that the dogs maternal grandmother had one or it's third cousin twice removed did, is just not too convincing. It has to be the parents. And the assurance that it's inate ability and more than a well trained or professionally trained dog, lies in the breeding rules that rely on the test system. It naturally concentrates desirable genes and weeds out undesirable genes (such as hip displaysia, neurological and temperament faults). Can that system produce mediocre or even bad dogs? Absolutely, but its less frequent and harder to hide.

I can't buy the parent's training, only the inherent natural ability that they are able to pass on to their pups.

You don't sound all that familiar with the German system or types of the dogs that it produces, and I don't claim to be an expert, but I studied and reseached GSPs and DKs for about a year before I made a decision (besides what I had learned from a lifetime of bird hunting). I have cultivated friendships with several of the people that got the NADKC going. I absolutely disagree that DKs are as a group more aggressive than American GSPs. I have not seen that to be the case. Almost none of these dogs are kennel dogs - most breeders insist on placing them withfamilies, preferrably with children, where they will live in the house as a family pet as well as be hunted. There is little reward in aggressiveness for a DK, though some lines are sharper than others. "Sharpness" to me, has a different connotation - it implies a more controlled trait than what "aggressiveness" implies to most folks. I can say that a number of the GSPs I watched in the local tests were definitely to be approached with caution, as were many of the dogs I saw in the rescue. That, along with hyperactivity were the main reasons the dogs were there. There are 4 GSPs that run where I take my dog. Two have already gone after my dog, one is OK, if a little aloof and the other still a pup. (BTW, none of the 4 has shown any affinity for water, which was one of my main criteria. Mine jumped in and swam with the big dogs the first time he saw it at four months - as I expected)

As for the lack of DKs in a rescue, absolutely there are fewer of them in the country, there are fewer breeders and they are, as a whole placed more carefully by the breeders. Partly this is because they only compete with the premium GSPs. There are no $300-500 DKs. Typically, they run from $800 to $1,100 and most of the breeders are boutique breeders that have one maybe two litters per year and probably break even or lose money on the deal. My point about the rescue was, that without regard to any other breeds, given the low number of GSPs in the area, that is an awful lot of dogs given up to a single rescue facility by their owners - especially when you consider that this is not the type of dog acquired from a pet store or pound on a whim. Most people who get a GSP are hunters and know what they are getting and why. That so many are given up says something about the dogs that are available.

Regarding your comments on range, if you want a 1,000 yard dog more power to you. I have hunted behind dogs that light out for the next county as soon as they're released. I have no use for that and wanted assurance that I wouldn't get a big-running dog like that. Why fight to condition a dog to suppress a natural desire that is not useful to me? If you hunt different, then fine get a different style of dog, but why fight against a type?

Sidebar: This year during the pheasant opener, I witnessed some a$$hole actually abandon a GSP (nice looking dog, obviously hunted a lot) because he apparently got tired of fighting its big run. He had about 4-5 dogs in professional setup and just drove off saying he'd had it - he couldnt control him. Some kid got him, waited around and left word at the campground,etc in case the guy wanted him back. The kid ended up taking the dog home. I hope he does better with it. I know the dog got a better deal.

You may not have a preference between German and American dogs (though your comments suggest otherwise), but many breeders talk up the German lines in their dogs and put GERMAN IMPORT in caps in their ads. When I noticed that, is when I began to get curious about German dogs. BTW, weren't the original Greif dogs (in this country) line-bred German? I don't spend much time researching GSP history, but I thought I read that somewhere

My dog is about nine months and still in training, but I have hunted him quite a bit this season and like what I see. His littermates are also doing quite well (goes to my original point).

I have had three hunting dogs, the others were a weimareiner and a brittany. I have actively worked (trained) with and hunted with an EP and another DK. Other than that I have hunted over any number of GSPs, Labs and a few brittanys.

Again, all I am trying to say is that I have become a big fan of the german testing and breeding system as a way to make getting a good dog, well suited to a foothunter of various kinds of birds, less of a crapshoot.

Judging by the growth in popularity of the European breed club versions of the versatiles, and especially NAVHDA as an organization, I would say the general idea is catching on among a lot of hunters.


Scott

 

[Mt Goat]

DK

First off I'm not trying to get into a bragging match either, Your blanket statments about the GSP breed as a whole is wrong


You said
You say that your field trial dogs have all those abilities but are just trained differently so they don't show it. Lets say that's true - I certainly don't know that it's not, but as the buyer, that is a speculative assumption on my part since I have seen no evidence. It could be just "yeah, my dogs do it all" sales hype.

I dont have but one future field trail dog, if he has what it takes, the others are hunting dogs that come from trial lines. My dogs are trained differently so dont show what ???

If you want evidence go to the breeders house, see the parents of the puppys, look at there temperments veiw the temperments of the other dogs in there yard or kennel, you come into my yard the only danger your going to be in is being knocked over and licked you to death. Whatever claim a breeder is making about there dogs, if you want to see it ask to see the dogs work ??? or go hunting with them, or go training with them.



you said :
Certainly MH and VC tiltles are evidence, but the fact that the dogs maternal grandmother had one or it's third cousin twice removed did, is just not too convincing. It has to be the parents. And the assurance that it's inate ability and more than a well trained or professionally trained dog,

I'm glad you like the DK system and that its working for you. A dog can have all the natural ability in the world, but at some point training comes in, in all the tests MH, VC, FC, DK ect ... there is some training involved, the more time you put into a dog the better he'll be.



you said:
My point about the rescue was, that without regard to any other breeds, given the low number of GSPs in the area, that is an awful lot of dogs given up to a single rescue facility by their owners - especially when you consider that this is not the type of dog acquired from a pet store or pound on a whim. Most people who get a GSP are hunters and know what they are getting and why. That so many are given up says something about the dogs that are available.


There are several breeders in Southern California besides for the guy that has a litter now and again. The recues you were talking about get dogs from alot of different areas I know for a fact that they get dogs from my area in the High Desert, but that aside 60 is way to much IMO 5 dogs would be to many. Alot of people who get GSP are hunter ALOT arent and people do buy GSP's on a Whim, the rescues show that. I have a litter on the ground and 50% of the calls I get are from none hunting homes, I wont sell to those home's even though they would all be gone by now. To me its about the dog, giving them the chance to do what they were put on this earth to do, hunt, I know alot of dog buyers are first timers and need help training so I offer to help them if they want it. If your saying that the dogs in the rescue reflect there hunting ability then go look at my web-site, a good friend of mine wanted a rescue dog so went to the rescue you mentioned, That dog is a hunt fool a great dog, I have pictures of her on my site.


You said:
Regarding your comments on range, if you want a 1,000 yard dog more power to you. I have hunted behind dogs that light out for the next county as soon as they're released. I have no use for that and wanted assurance that I wouldn't get a big-running dog like that. Why fight to condition a dog to suppress a natural desire that is not useful to me? If you hunt different, then fine get a different style of dog, but why fight against a type?


I dont think anyone wants to hunt behind a dog that runs 1000 yards out but if you want to play there games you have to let the dog find his natural range. but like I said his litter mates are just hunting dogs and have been worked closer from the start, so that is there true range, because it was never allowed to be more. IMO if a dog is completely out of control he shouldnt be in the field, I dont think its a fight agains type it's training the dog to understand what you want from him.

Why fight to condition a dog to suppress a natural desire thats not useful ??? Well for me its natural for a dog to chase rabbits, deer I suppress that desire, dogs like to roll in cow sh!t or dead animalsI suppress that desire, dogs may want to dig I would suppress that desire, It all comes down to the person and what they want to let there dog do. If a dog is trainable you can get what you want. I think the KS system shows trainability and I also think VC, MH, AFC, FC, show trainability too.



you said:
You may not have a preference between German and American dogs (though your comments suggest otherwise), but many breeders talk up the German lines in their dogs and put GERMAN IMPORT in caps in their ads. When I noticed that, is when I began to get curious about German dogs. BTW, weren't the original Greif dogs (in this country) line-bred German? I don't spend much time researching GSP history, but I thought I read that somewhere

I do have a preference, the GSP, because thats what I want. I said I dont have KS envy, I could careless. All the GSP's are linebred German dogs. If you read the book the New Complete German Shorthair Pointer, it will talk about all the old imports and how they hunted and what they were built like, The Germans had alot of different types of dogs , some small, some big, some big running ect...


Again to each his own, there are different dogs for everyone, I dont think it's right to make blanket statments about a breed as a whole, because nothing is absolute, I'm not saying my dogs are better than yours I wasnt trying to brag, just use example is all. Are all GSP's good NO, are all DK's good NO, are all Britt good NO, are all EP's good NO are all Weimy's good NO, are all V's good NO, are all Lab's good NO, ect... but it is easy to find good dog's in all the breed you just have to spend time and look.

Larry

 

[BADBOYZ24]

I HAVE HAD THE HONOR OF TRAINING AND HUNTING WITH SEVERAL BREEDS OF DOGS. AN ENGLISH POINTER HAD WONDERFUL STAMINA BUT HARD TO KEEP IN CLOSE. SETTERS ARE A CLASS OF THERE OWN BUT MY ALL TIME FAVORITE IS THE WEIMARNER. WITH ITS GREAT NOSE, CLOSE WORKING, EXCEPTIONAL RETRIEVING AND STRONG LOYALTY TO ITS OWNER.

 

[DKScott]

Mt Goat,

I have made no "blanket statements" about GSPs. Every comment I have made I have qualified as being my personal observation and noted that dogs vary. I have to say, it seems to me that even though I have not attacked you or your dogs, you are so wrapped up in defending your way that you can't understand my point. You sound like a responsible breeder that makes the effort to produce good dogs and put them in appropriate homes. Trouble is for somebody like me that drops into the breeder world maybe once every 10 years, it's very hard to tell who's good and who's not (or who used to be good but is now just living on past glory). This is doubly so when you're looking nationwide, which is often the case. I know your aware of some disreputable breeders or just "puppy sellers" in the region. A lot of this tends to be inside knowledge and consumers hear little of it.

Apparently I haven't made my point very well. You are a breeder, I am a consumer - an end user of what you produce. I am merely attempting to relate the problems I, as a consumer, had finding "good" dogs as defined by my criteria for my use. I was attempting to convey that many of the dogs locally available were either ill bred or bred to highlight characteristics that I as a foot hunter (not a trialer) had little use for and how that specialization (and the very fact that a dog can be identified as "out of field trial lines" is proof of selective breeding to certain traits) had APPARENTLY (that's another qualifier BTW) deemphasized traits I wanted, such as water work and a temperament suitable for a family pet.

Buying a big running field trial dog that is not interested in sitting in a duck blind or retrieving in cold water does not serve my personal needs as a Consumer, nor does getting a dog whose drive and energy are so high that he is not a suitable house dog. That many American GSPs (i.e trial stock)are an inherently different style of dog than DKs is beyond question. The NAVHDA-oriented dogs are probably much closer, since they are selected for versatility. Whether that's good or bad depends on your purpose. My purpose is an all-around gun dog that can work across a wide variety of climates, hunting conditions and species. And not unimportantly, a good family pet the rest of the year (he's curled up at my feet as I type this).

A breeder with dogs from trial lines might say "yeah, my dogs have the ability to do all that, but they're just trained to do other things (trialing)." or if I express concern about range "They don't have to range out 1,000 yards, they can be kept to 200" Maybe yes, maybe no - if they're trained to do other things and can't show me those qualities, what's the evidence their pups will meet my criteria? Some folks say what they need to to make a deal, some just tend to say what they think you want to hear.

My other point was that the German system of breeding is designed to breed true to a specified standard, and that over time the animals bred under that system will be selected to better and better exhibit the characteristics of that standard. That's why DKs can be registered in the AKC, but not vice versa (yes, I know it's a DKV decision, but that's the reason for it). The Germans breed all their dog breeds this way and my horse friends tell me that German horses are tested and bred the same way and are held in high regard as well. I'm sure that if you define a standard for field trial dogs, that same system will produce superior field trial dogs. Its only a program, the input and purpose determines the output. Maybe its time to create an American Shorthaired Pointer, define a standard and breed to it.

In my opinion, as the Consumer of the end product, the German testing/breeding system is far superior to the uncontrolled AKC way that has clearly ruined several breeds and regularly puts misfits as well as good dogs of all breeds on the market. The problem for me as a consumer, is how do I tell before I commit? I was trained as an analyst and the reason I like the German system is that it provides quantified data rather than stories about the pup's lineage and at least some assurance of quality and correctness in the dog I am buying. Its just happens that for my purposes, the current breed standard for DKs is pretty much what I was looking for in a dog. Other breeds have different characteristics.

BTW, I have read the New Complete German Shorthair Pointer. Not all German dogs are closely line bred - they vary. But it says something about how well bad genes have been weeded out when you can have an inbreeding (Wright's) coefficient of 40% and still have a healthy, correct dog (I studied just enough genetics in college to be dangerous). Once they get to this country, purposeful line-breeding seems to pretty much go out the window - from what I can tell. I am also surprised to hear 50% of your calls come from non-hunters. I can't tell you how many people ask me what my dog's breed is. Most people that recognize him as a GSP are either hunters or related to hunters.

Scott

 

[Mt Goat]

DK you said

Mt Goat,

I have made no "blanket statements" about GSPs. Every comment I have made I have qualified as being my personal observation and noted that dogs vary

What are these :

I was attempting to convey that many of the dogs locally available were either ill bred or bred to highlight characteristics that I as a foot hunter (not a trialer) had little use for and how that specialization (and the very fact that a dog can be identified as "out of field trial lines" is proof of selective breeding to certain traits) had APPARENTLY (that's another qualifier BTW) deemphasized traits I wanted, such as water work and a temperament suitable for a family pet.


Buying a big running field trial dog that is not interested in sitting in a duck blind or retrieving in cold water does not serve my personal needs as a Consumer, nor does getting a dog whose drive and energy are so high that he is not a suitable house dog

To me these are blanket statments that are not true. It like me saying I would'nt buy a DK because I have kids and german DK dog have bad temperments and are alpha aggressive, and are not able to hunt in a field with another dog. OR a DK wouldnt work for me as a foot hunter because they are big, slow plotting dogs that cant hunt all day, they have no range and there noses are always on the ground.

These are blanket statments like yours.

You talk better of NAVHDA but may or may not know that several of those dogs are field trial bred.

I think we should just be happy we've both found dogs that we're happy with and leave it at that.

Maybe one of these days we could hook up for a hunt, does your dog back ??? or after the hunting season meet out a Prado and work the dogs. I wouldnt mind seeing your dog work, might change some stero types I have of them too.

 

[DKScott]

Mt Goat,

You quoted:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I was attempting to convey that many of the dogs locally available were either ill bred or bred to highlight characteristics that I as a foot hunter (not a trialer) had little use for and how that specialization (and the very fact that a dog can be identified as "out of field trial lines" is proof of selective breeding to certain traits) had APPARENTLY (that's another qualifier BTW) deemphasized traits I wanted, such as water work and a temperament suitable for a family pet.[/b]

I call those my specific personal observations, based on the tests and trials I attended and kennels I visited and breeders I spoke with over about a 14-month period. "Many" does not mean "all". I never claimed that well bred American GSPs don't exist, I have repeatedly said they do and in one post named several breeders whose dogs I was impressed with and/or had heard good first-person reports from people I trust to know the difference.

That big name kennels are frequently associated field trials is simply a fact - one well advertised by the breeders themselves. It is only rational behavior on their part to selectively breed dogs that will do well in that type of competition (who intentionally breeds losers?). I won't get into the often-made charge that that English Pointers have been crossed into some of these lines, except to note that the claim has persisted for many years.

Pointing out that the qualities expressed in an accomplished field trial dog do not reflect the needs of the average foot hunter/waterfowler that owns a dog or two as family pets, seems to cause you some discomfort. Sorry, but that is also my personal observation and opinion and I am entitled to that. You have never seen a GSP that runs big and/or can't sit still in a blind or doesn't care for water except to cool off on a hot day?

As for your facetious generalizations of DKs, if that's what your impressions of the stereotypical DK is like, you clearly are unfamiliar with this type of GSP and haven't seen many -or possibly none, given how few there are in CA (i'd guess a dozen, less than two dozen for sure, based on the NADKC membership in CA. The center of gravity for these dogs is the upper midwest). You should go hunt upland and waterfowl over a couple or even DD's or pudlepointers and see what a versatile hunting dog is like. I'd offer mine up, but he's young and in his first season and not there yet. A truly finished VGP or higher dog is a fine animal (IMO). NAVHDA VCs are probably about the same on bird work.

I don't know where you get this aggression thing. I have not seen it in DKs. As I said, it is a quality that is penalized in testing. I certainly have not seen any of the territorial, fear or dominance aggression that you allude to. I'm sure you could find some if you looked, but since aggressive dogs will be less successful in tests, it is de-selected. My dog is a friend to all, loves other dogs, kids, and strangers alike. His parents are just the same.

I have seen that type of aggressiveness in SOME American GSPs though, including two that have attacked my dog (sorry if that seems like a blanket statement, but it is my personal observation and my dog's personal scar).

Sharpness is a different quality altogether and I have seen little of that. The only DK I know of that people say should be approached with caution is also used as a police and narcotics dog on Oklahoma

(Whisky vom Bieberstein 61/95
D3, VJP 68, HZP 181, VGP 1b 312, HD Frei,
Formwert SG
NAVHDA NA Prize 1, 106
UT Prize 2, 192
NSTRA points
Certified by the state of Oklahoma as a narcotics detection K-9)

How's that for versatility?

My buddy's dog is a Vom Beiberstein dog (a line said to have sharpness in it) and at 2 years, she is very sweet and gets along well with humans and other dogs.

As for plodding, LOL! my dog's a rocket (no dog-rocket jokes please

) At nine months he's discovered he has these great long legs and he's all about speed. I am seeing a great, fast search develop. Are dogs bred for trialing faster? Probably, but as foot hunter, that's more than I need in a medium ranging dog.

A lot of DKs do tend look for scent on the ground as tracking is part of their repertoire. Can be an asset for running birds. Right now, I having trouble getting mine to use his nose more. The sparse cover that I typically have to work him in enables him to rely on sight more than I would like, but I believe that's just a training issue. He seems to have a very good nose when he wants to use it

The reason I speak positively about NAVHDA is because it introduces the same rational testing system that will produce versatile dogs for versatile hunters. That's my whole point. It's not that I think there is anything wrong with field trial dogs or field trialing, its just that in my search for a hunting dog, I found that even at its best, it emphasizes abilities that didn't synch very well with the way I hunt and in the case of waterfowl, what I hunt. That is just my personal assessment of what I need in a dog, as a hunter and consumer.

My comments about ill-bred dogs are based on what I have seen and I will stand by them. Look at the prevalance of hip dysplasia and skin disorders in labs, the tendency of breeds to get bigger over time because its impressive to show-people. Look at the complete destruction of Irish Setters as a hunting breed. Look at dogs of any breed that just have a poor temperament. Some of these dogs will always occur, but why should they be bred? Answer: They shouldn't; but nothing other than personal ethics stops it. And some folks are sorely lacking in that department, especially if money's involved.

It is an indictment against the indiscriminate breeding that is permitted under the AKC. Certainly many good breeders exist and work hard to produce good dogs, as they define them. Unfortunately, there are more than a few bad ones who breed and sell dogs that are unfit. Some folks recognize them and avoid them, but others don't and these dogs get out into the gene pool. One prominant breeder in the midwest, who is concientious and appears to put out some pretty good dogs, told another breeder, whom I know quite well, "we have buried a lot of mistakes". That the system produces "alot of mistakes" even among premium GSPs is tragic but can be fixed. The real problem are the breeders who would have sold those dogs anyway. Its not always easy for a layman to tell the difference between who's good and who's not, and at 10 weeks, all puppies are cute (IMO).

My enthusiasm for the way that Germans breed animals is based on my experiences with a relative's horse farm, where breeding was a serious topic and because of my own bias towards objective, quantifiable measures. "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it" (A business school mantra).

To me, a rational, objective system will produce superior animals over time that more reliably conform to whatever breed standard is in place. The same system will produce superior trial dogs as easily as superior versatile dogs. The program is generic. It will operate to produce animals that fully express whatever standard you set out (so long as you don't change the standard). While a talented breeder can produce some superstars, a system like the Germans use will tend to upgrade the entire breed. For a competitor, the current American way may offer more perceived upside. For a hunter buying dogs, I think the other way offers a better chance to get a good dog (I'm not talking about specifically DKs here. My point is much more general)

You don't have to think about it too hard to see that GSPs are bred this way anyway, its just that it is to an unofficial or undefined (or not well defined) standard that emphasises success in competitions that utilize only a few of the breed's inherent abilities, as originally defined, which was as a one-dog does-it-all solution for middle-class Germans (who,when granted the right to hunt, couldn't afford a kennel full of specialists and their handlers).

Where we differ, is in my conclusion that, for me, that type of dog better fulfills my needs and the DK that is a result of that process, as the Germans implement it, and was a good solution (for me). Plus, that system gave me a comfort level that the dog I got would turn out to be what I expected.

If your needs are different I have no problem with that nor do I doubt you can find or breed good dogs to fill that need.

At nine months, my dog is a work in progress and in his first season. I have not really worked him on backing, though he hasn't shown an inclination to poach a point with a friend's dog. This may be due to an age/size thing, as my friend's EP is older and larger and clearly in charge - I just don't know. I will be getting him ready for the Derby this Spring and will probably be out at Prado at least a few times. Maybe we can hook up. You sound like you've trained more than a few dogs, and I'm always looking to learn something.

Scott

 

[vermonsta]

I voted for the Weimaraner as I've had the most experience with them. I had a GSP who was going to be a great hunter ,he started pointing partridge when he was about 6 months old on his own while out for walks.He got away from wife and he ran onto the road and got killed. I'm on my second Weim but my first one was a hard one to follow was a natural phenomanal hunter.I've had to work with this one alot more ,maybe the 3 kids and wife are a slight distraction ...lol .This whole subject is almost like politics and religon there's no right or wrong answer There are good and bad in all breeds and diffrent expectations . If you went out with a fellow hunter with his dog one day and your dog the next you would get 2 different discriptions of the same hunts. Whatever breed you get try to match your traits and the breeds traits . If you don't want a pedigree and want an inexpensive dog check out the rescue sites for your favorite breed ..there's a lot of good dogs looking for good homes out there !

 

[Greg]

I have a GSP, but I still had to vote for the Brittany. I've seen the dogs in the field and they have always blown me away. I like there size rarely do you see a big Brittany. Don't get me wrong, I love my GSP and he is a beautiful dog to watch when he goes on point.

 

[AnewBigDaddyB]

how did this thread resurect from the past?
Don't remember when I first joined, but, I think I missed all this, and begin to see the start of all the hoopla about DK's vs. GSP's vs. AKC, vs. ??????????

Each breed (pointing) that was available to vote for are great! And, there are several pointers left out!

Irish Setter, Irish red and white setter, Spinone, Large and Small Munsterlanders, Gordon Setters and I'm sure I'm leaving some out?

this list is more of a popularity list, IMHO!

Regardless, there isn't a single pointing breed available, that doesn't merit its salt! That's why they're here, folks have strived to make the best out of whatever breed of their choice, and the same is stated for the flushers! Many fine breeds, spaniels, retrievers, tollers!

It's all about having a sporting dog, period! In a nutshell! Folks need to get over themselves when it comes to the BEST! Nothing, except in YOUR mind, is the BEST! Period, cars, women, men, teams, motocycles, food, etc. etc.! NOTHING! PERIOD! EXcept, in your MIND!

BTW for those that may not know, I voted Vizsla, solely because they're the only hunting breed of dog I've ever owned! But, I've hunted with, and have personal friends that own GSP, Britt, Lab, Toller, ESS, GR's, and I've had the experience to personally hunt with cockers, GWP's, Griffons, Pudelpointers.
And, look forward to the day I get to hunt with EP's, Gordon's, Irish Red Setters, Munsterlanders, you name it, I'm game, for I know too well, that the dog is the one that's going to put me on birds. Unless of course there's just so many dang birds around, a dog is not necessary to begin with???? Only experienced that a handful of times in my 40+years of hunting!

 

[ilovesprig]

O.K. O.K. If you want a real hunting dog, get your self a POINTING LABRADOR RETRIEVER. I think I'll get out of here before one of you throw a brick through my computer.

P.S. The best pointing dogs I've ever hunted over were English.

 

[gottahunt]

I voted for the GSP because, OK it is the only pointer that I have hunted over, (kind of a limited experience). My GSP is liver and white (he is the avatar,) but I am including a picture of his father, who is a black & white GSP from a German line.

This will be my dog's 2nd season, and I was quite pleased with him the 1st season.

 

[Mt Goat]

Nice looking dogs there guys.

Really when it come down to it the best hunting dog is a the you love and want and want to spend time working and hunting with. ALL the breeds have nice dogs but with all, you need to do your research to make sure if your looking for a hunting dog that the parents will have bird desire and be trainable.

Larry

 

[AnewBigDaddyB]

sprig! nice San Jacinto roosters, and dogs!